Vaccinations... revisited
 

My vet disregarded any of the vaccinations my puppies received because he said they were too young and started their DA2PPV shots ALL OVER AGAIN at 8 weeks. They just had their second shot, and will get their third and last shot at 5 months along with their rabies. My concern is, am I over-vaccinating them? Should I have started with the second set instead of starting all over again?

Also, after the initial puppy vaccinations, I'm curious on how often members here re-vaccinate your puppies. Is there a law that require certain vaccinations over the years? rabies shots?

Also, Is it normal to get the ONE YEAR booster shots after completing puppy vaccination series ? I'm debating whether I should even get this done. After the one year shots though, they won't be receiving any more shots for their lifetime.

I'm still unclear on this as well. You can read this sticky for more info.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...-overview.html

Well, any shot given earlier than 8 weeks would be considered ineffective due to the pup receiving antibodies from Mom. It's unfortunate for the pup that any shots were given earlier.

The immune system only needs to be successfully provoked once to provide immunity. Successfully provoked means that memory cells have established antibodies for a given virus. The 3 shot protocol is primarily in place to ensure that the immune system gets successfully provoked. The % of dogs whose immune systems respond to a vaccine goes up in age and by 16 weeks over 90% of dogs' immune systems respond to a vaccine by developing memory cells for a virus. So, the last of the puppy shots should not be given before 16 weeks.

Laws regarding rabies vaccinations vary by state and sometimes within a state. In any case, I wouldn't give the rabies vaccine before 6 months and would never have it done at the same time as any other vaccines.

Rabies are every 3 years, 1 year for some. Required- it depends on your licensing requirement-many places (cities, counties) require the vaccinations, and you are technically breaking the law if you fail to vaccinate or license your dogs... I've talked to several breeders who are really against vaccinations of any kind-so it seems to be a very controversial issue with many people. If a pup has any vacs prior to 8 weeks a vet will redo them-not sure its the best thing but that's what happens. Personally I get all the vaccinations for my dogs because they come in contact with other dogs via the dog park, doggy day care etc, and it's required I show proof of vaccinations to bring them there, for their safety and the safety of other dogs. I've always been concerned about strays that get picked up and are vaccinated at the pounds...were they up to date-what is the effect of multiple vaccinations for the same thing-it can't be good but I'm sure it is a minimal issue in reality.

I'm glad to know that there were no other intentions by my vet to decide to start all over again. I had to look for a new vet because I have moved and I wasn't sure if this was normal. If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean when you say that it is unfortunate? I understand now that the vaccines given earlier were ineffective, but do they harm them in any way in the long run? :eek:

thanks dvlshangel985, I'll be following this routine with few exceptions: Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs
I have heard that it is safer to vaccinate the combo vaccines separately. However, our vet only has it in the combination form of DA2PPV, so that won't be likely. After the three puppy shots, I'll give them one year booster shot of DA2PPV (and maybe rabies?) as their last shot, and WILL NOT give any more vaccinations for the rest of their lives including rabies. I don't think my dogs will ever bite anyone, and I dont' get how anyone would find out whether my dogs are up to date on rabies and fine me for it. Any thoughts on this?

I'm taking them for their third and last puppy shot at 18~19 weeks, and i'll make sure to wait on the rabies shot until 6 months of age. That concerns me about my vet though. Why would she recommend me to give rabies shot along with DA2PPV before 6 months of age, when she is the vet and she should know? Are any of your vets like this?

Why would you not want to keep your dog up to date on the rabies vaccine? Why would you want to chance them getting something that will kill them?

Rabies vaccine is creating contreversy in the vet field.

I don't recommend that anyone not have their pets forgo this vaccine. I recommend to my families that they forgo the vaccine until approximately 7 months of age and again a year later. I don't think that anyone should ignore that fact that rabies can be contracted from squirrels, rats, mice, etc.

Yes, some communities recommend that the vaccine be given every year. That is dependent on the number of rabies cases that are being encountered in some communities. In California it is being "recommended" to be given annually because they've discovered numberous bats with the disease. However, vets are challenging the over vaccination of rabies.

There is also an orginization that one might look into the "The Rabies Challange" group. It comprised of vets that have been studying the pros and cons of the vaccine. Make an educated decision on how much is too much. Each dog is different. My question is; Why is the same quantity administered to a 5 pound toy dog as 100 pound dog.

Wait I'm here in CA too and my dogs only get their rabies every three years...am I on a different vaccine for it or something? I'm actually in a rabies hot zone (Humboldt in NorCal) in fact a little girl at my son's school two blocks away was bitten by a rabies fox two years ago and another school child was bitten by another fox at a school about a mile away...so why would some places give a yearly vaccine and here in a hot zone we have three year boosters...hmmmm I am getting so much veterinary contradiction from YT members so glad I have a consult with a new vet if this is another issue in the vet advice I've been getting!

My dogs are not outdoors too much, and I have a 5 year old yorkie that I have not gave booster rabie vaccinations for and he is fine. Isn't it only when you come into contact with squirels, rats, etc that you get the disease? Correct me if I'm wrong. I just heard of so many side effects with rabies that I would rather not give it unless he's an outdoor dog.

concretegurl: I wonder what the difference between one year booster and three year booster is. Is it more potent than the one year?:eek:

Mardelin: Don't know for sure, but I read somewhere that only that amount will trigger the immune system, despite the weight of the dog. Same thing with the vaccines administered to a 80 lb person and a 200 lb person. This was someone's comment, so I'm wondering myself if it is true.

I'm in the suberbs here...but still at any given time we have raccoons (actually three years ago a mama had two babies under the house) foxes and field mice in the back yard-a month ago I saw the fattest raccoon ever crawling over our back fence-and the three yards that border mine all have dogs in them so the dogs aren't detouring the visiting wild life especially at night when most dogs are in the house...so I opt to be on the safe side with rabies-especially considering the rabies outbreak here over the last three years. I'd really like to hear from anyone who knows about the difference in a one year and three year rabies booster though I'm rather concerned about the veterinary advice I've been getting.

My bella is on a 3 year rabies vaccination too, she is 2 years old...but her first Rabies shot when she was 7 mos was for a year only...when I took her back a year later she got the 3 year shot...my Vet won't do a 3 year rabies shot on a pup... and he also won't give a rabies shot until they are well over 6 mos of age.

Answered my own question...no difference in the vaccine itself...re's a few links in case anyone else was interested or confused by it like me
Rabies vaccinations - learn why are some good for 1 year and some good for 3 years for rabies vaccinations
and here's a link for those who don't believe in it an article titled How to Protect Your Dog From a Vaccine Junkie (requires adobe reader read only copy)...wish I could remember the name of the famous miniature schnauzer breeder who started the anti-vaccine movement
Information/Article: Protect Your Dog From a "Vaccine Junkie"

Great articles. I will be going over the first article after work hours. The second article though, why would a state require a booster to be given every year if it is the same and can last up to 3 years. that puzzles me.

I think I'll adminster the titer test after puppy shots (or one year booster shots. does anyone know which?) as recommended in a titer article. If the results come out that they have built a strong immune system, I will not be giving any more vaccinations for 7~8 years. Maybe I'll recheck then and give booster shots if necessary. I highly recommend this procedure for everyone!

Rabies, not sure what to do yet. Probably will stop after the year booster unless I start taking my dogs to dog parks frequently.

Again, anyone know the side effects of giving vaccines too early? (before 8 weeks)

1 year vs 3 years I think the answer is politics vs common sense...:confused:
Not really sure other than finding out the dosages are the same and the 1 year booster verses the 3 year has more to do with the age at the time of the first vaccination to the second and then to regular boosters. I'd debate the vaccination and consider not doing it...but as I said there's too much of a risk even in my own back yard...and there has been a real rabies epidemic in my area.
When you read the article there's a lot in there about side effects of vaccinations, either given doubly when animals are questioned about receiving them at all (like when the pounds auto vaccinate because they have no history) giving them to certain purebreds, and at certain ages how they are similar to children receiving vaccinations too young they can cause genetically predisposed illnesses to "come out" what all that means I don't really know I just read it all myself, but it all really does sound very alarming.
Are there any breeders on here who administer vaccinations themselves? I heard breeders who can do their own vaccinations have to be licensed and certified so they have some formal training on vaccinations in general...or any vets out there among us?

Short of an immediate adverse reaction to the vaccine, I can't think of a 'side effect' that you would notice, but reactions to vaccines can occur for some time out from the injection. Vaccines given too early are ineffective, which leads to a pup being vaccinated more times, further stressing the pup's immune system. Vaccines can have a cumulative effect on the body's systems and that's what I meant in saying it was unfortunate that the pup was given shots too soon.

Here's a few links that may interest you.........

Science of Vaccine Damage

Britfeld.com - Adverse Vaccine Reactions by Dr W. Jean Dodds

CANINE VACCINATION

I'm not one to advise against vaccinations, but they should not be thought of as something benign and harmless, either. The evidence is substantial that there has been a correlation between increased incidences of inflammatory diseases and the increased use of vaccines over the years. The protocols have changed for vaccination and it's not just because they are un-necessary, but that over-vaccination is harmful to our pets.

This makes me tear up. They are so little and I feel so bad that they were given vaccinations so early. They received bordatella as well because they will be attending puppy classes soon, and I've read about side effects of the vaccine as well AFTER it was given. Thankfully they were fine and nothing went wrong. I'm very anti-medicine as well and it really works great for me- I don't really get sick as much as those who get their yearly flu vaccines. I think that is why I'm careful not to over-vaccinate them. Before I knew any better, I thought all these vaccinations were MANDATORY and only did good for the animals.

Thanks for the articles. I'll read them as well.

Your vet is right except there is no good reason to give DHPP and rabies on the same day.

The same amount of vaccine is given to large and small dogs because it takes a certain amount to get an immune response. I'm guessing it's similar for human medicine. Children and adults, while being far from the same size, probably get the same tetanus vaccine, etc.

The one year rabies vs. the three year is going to be up to the leading vets in each state (or county) ... governmental vets. After the one year booster, it is not needed yearly. The pups that get the vaccine every three years and live in places with low rates of rabies still have to be protected. So not sure why if it's good enough for these dogs, it's not good enough for the pups in areas with a high rate of rabies. Bottom line is they are all required to be protected and the three year vaccine has been shown to do that.

One year boosters are pretty important. Titers are questionable. And there are major differences between killed, modified live, and recombinant vaccines. Duration of immunity will vary quite a bit between the types, so it's not as easy as saying one year booster then no more.

Thank you for clearing some of the things up. As for one year boosters and rabies, is it one year from when they last got their puppy shot? or is it when they turn one year old?

From Dr. Dodd's vaccine schedule, it says to give MLV Distemper and parovirus. Is it always the case with HA2PPVs? or do I need to ask my vet whether it is MLV? Same with rabie shots. do we get to choose and say we want a killed one? or does it always come as killed?

lastly, I think that is what I read as well regarding the same vaccination amount on both large and small breeds. is there a scientific research where I can read more about it?

Thanks so much!

It shouldn't make that much difference. I'd personally go about a year after the last puppy vaccine.

Rabies vaccines are always killed.
DHPP is MLV. I think there is a recombinant distemper available now. Most vets would probably carry the MLV. Recombinant are interesting, but less seems to be known about them.

I don't. Read it somewhere. Could try PubMed.

Why would you want to take the chance of your dog getting something that is not curable and will kill them. All it takes is for them to be outside for a minute and a rabid animal to come bite them and then your dog would have to be put down. I personally have never heard of bad reactions to the rabies vaccine. Never ever would I chance my dog getting something that will kill them.

My whole issue is more along the lines of just following the law. I think the chances are fairly slim (but of course possible) for my dog to get bitten by a rabid animal and he's outside a lot. I'm more worried that legally, if my dog has not had the rabies vaccine (which he gets every 3yrs - MD law) they could take him away from me. Jackson has never bit anybody, but what if he did, out of fear, or whatever, and they had to "test" him for rabies? Well, the only way to test for rabies is to kill the dog, as far as I know. So I would never risk breaking the law and losing my dog and there being nothing I could do about it.

Jackson got DHPP at 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 15 weeks. Then he got rabies around 19 weeks old. Then DHPP again at 1 year and rabies again at 1 year. I'm fairly certain the only vaccine he will get again for the rest of his life will be rabies because it's required by law. Although, 3 years from now, I will judge whether I believe it in his benefit to get DHPP again. And that's every 3yrs. I would never give rabies vaccine every year-- way too much!

There is a fine line to walk. Rabies can kill dogs and people. The rabies vaccine can also potentially cause death, esp. in toy breed pups. All healthy dogs should be kept UTD with rabies vaccines, but there actually may be more risks to giving the shot if the pup is 100% indoor. Ellie gets it and is always watched outside. It's the right thing to do (IMO). I have really thought long and hard about that though. :(

Well, do you register your dogs with the city/county? I moved and plan to move again, so I really haven't looked into this for the area I'm in now. In my area animal control gives a rats behind about dogs, so they don't check up on who is and who is not registering their dogs, at least I think that's how they work. I've never actually seen them. But in areas like Torrance, CA close to where I plan to move to, Animal Control will fine anyone who isn't in compliance. That means having all pups up to date on all shots, including rabies. You need proof of that to get the license that the pup must wear at all times. And it's an ugly one too.:thumbdown If you get fined, you have to go to court and I'm sure they'll ask for all your documentation and reasons towards not registering your dog.

This is my understanding as well. We follow AAHA guidelines on vaccines. I am not comfortable taking a minimalist approach to vaccines such as titers at this time so I stick with AAHA.

I only do the puppy shots and that is at approx 10 weeks old 14 weeks old and then 18 weeks old. They can be boostered one year after that last puppy vaccination if you want to. Alternately, you can have a titer done to see what levels of immunization are still there.
I do the 4 way only do not allow them to include Corona virus or lepto.
NEver ever let your Vet do rabies in combo with any other vacc's
Never allow your Vet to vaccinate at the same time as any surgery when they are under anesthesia or had anesthesia that day.
I would be looking for a new Vet given what your vet is wanting to do.
BUT some states require different things as State laws. We dont have that issue here in Canada.

Didn't know Torrance was so strict. Im from Anaheim hills, and I've also lived in LA as well, and both cities never checked rather the dog was up to date. Same with NY. I don't think anyone really cared whether I had a dog or not, more so his shots. That's why I thought it was more of a personal choice for small breed dog owners because they are not out in the yard without my watch, they are too small to really bite anyone nor would they bite, etc.

I will consider rabies shot, but that's about it as fars as the shots go. I've been reading many artcles and they said most vaccines immunize for life. I will tither a little after one year to make sure they are fully immunized, and thats about it.

concretegurl: your "vaccine junkie" article really confirmed everything i was reading about. Thank you! Did you read there that they only recommend two puppy shots (one at 12 and other at 16 weeks)? and then a booster at one year and they are set for life. never heard of two puppy shots instead of three. wonder if it actually works bc my puppies just finished their second shots.

Lorraine: great advice. I have a question for all though. My vet keeps reassuring me he'll be fine if he gets the rabies and third puppy shot at the same time, and says i can't wait til 6 months because it's NY law. I've told him I've been researching and she keeps talking so confidently that I'm getting confused myself. Help? and how do I let her know without "hurting her feelings that she's wrong? (she's a friends friend)

I have been fighting the same fight with my vet. Actually no fight. He tells me what he wants to do, I told him "no" this is what I will do and that is what we do. I brought a copy of this with me: Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs So he knows I am not just making it up. He is not happy with the 6 months for Rabies either, but I reminded him that I did it his way and had two dogs have bad reactions. One got hives and the other really was sick to the point I thought I was going to lose her. Both had rabies with their last combo vaccines way too early. So, he goes along with what I want and is not mad or anything. He just thinks I have the wrong idea but that it will not hurt anything. Since I started doing it this way -- I have had no adverse reactions at all. Granted, there were only 2 before, but one of those was close to lethal! So, I take no chances. I would like to go completely without as I do not think my dogs have much risk factor at all. But since I never know if I might be in a position where they need to be around other dogs (like hurricane evacuation), I go ahead and give what I have to.

omg! I'm sorry to hear that they had such a bad reactions. That must have been a horrifying experience. These vets get me so angry! I don't get how they could recommend me things that might harm the pets. What if I hadn't researched? it's so hard arguing with them too because they have that "I'm the doctor I know it all" attitude. ugh. I wish I could speak out and firmly put my foot down but she's a friends friend so I dont know what to say when she keeps saying "no, trust me. don't worry about it they wil lbe FINE". :mad:

No dog is to small to bite

I had the same issues with dealing with my Elvis having cluster seizures and trying to get help, the vet felt he didn't need medication because they weren't happening close enough together, the common medications were not really meant for small dogs, the side effects of the meds were as damaging as not medicating him, and all the while I'm seeing my dog having seizures and loosing some basic abilities and going back with my concerns and being told he'll not live long at some point in the near future I will be making quality of life determinations for him etc...then I started talking to people on YT about it. Many of their dogs smaller than mine have been taking phenobarbital, they got their animals fixed, the severity of cluster seizures actually should be taken more seriously than regularly occurring single seizures...basically I had someone whom was an authority in the matter telling me my concerns were unjustified and I needed to take their advice and that of their colleges because they had degrees in the matter...well I'm meeting a new vet now...might not work for you but you have to do what's best for your dog even if you have someone who tells you they know more than you and you are confused and don't really know what you are talking about, if I could go back I would have asserted myself in the beginning and have said either you treat this with urgency or I'm leaving instead of going back and forth and having left anyways, maybe just informing her you made your decision and this is what you an leave it on her to either accept your decision or not...I know its hard to advocate for yourself when you are ended up "arguing" with the very person you are seeking sound advice from...but in the end if something doesn't feel right you have to do what you know to be right and trust it. I'm so thankful I met so many informed people on here with my issue so I felt justified in my choice and well when my concerns weren't taken seriously I seriously found a vet...