Vaccinations... revisited

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

which leads to a pup being vaccinated more times, further stressing the pup's immune system. Vaccines can have a cumulative effect on the body's systems and that's what I meant in saying it was unfortunate that the pup was given shots too soon.
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This makes me tear up. They are so little and I feel so bad that they were given vaccinations so early. They received bordatella as well because they will be attending puppy classes soon, and I've read about side effects of the vaccine as well AFTER it was given. Thankfully they were fine and nothing went wrong. I'm very anti-medicine as well and it really works great for me- I don't really get sick as much as those who get their yearly flu vaccines. I think that is why I'm careful not to over-vaccinate them. Before I knew any better, I thought all these vaccinations were MANDATORY and only did good for the animals.

Thanks for the articles. I'll read them as well.

[Ellie May]

Your vet is right except there is no good reason to give DHPP and rabies on the same day.

The same amount of vaccine is given to large and small dogs because it takes a certain amount to get an immune response. I'm guessing it's similar for human medicine. Children and adults, while being far from the same size, probably get the same tetanus vaccine, etc.

The one year rabies vs. the three year is going to be up to the leading vets in each state (or county) ... governmental vets. After the one year booster, it is not needed yearly. The pups that get the vaccine every three years and live in places with low rates of rabies still have to be protected. So not sure why if it's good enough for these dogs, it's not good enough for the pups in areas with a high rate of rabies. Bottom line is they are all required to be protected and the three year vaccine has been shown to do that.

One year boosters are pretty important. Titers are questionable. And there are major differences between killed, modified live, and recombinant vaccines. Duration of immunity will vary quite a bit between the types, so it's not as easy as saying one year booster then no more.

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Your vet is right except there is no good reason to give DHPP and rabies on the same day.

The same amount of vaccine is given to large and small dogs because it takes a certain amount to get an immune response. I'm guessing it's similar for human medicine. Children and adults, while being far from the same size, probably get the same tetanus vaccine, etc.

The one year rabies vs. the three year is going to be up to the leading vets in each state (or county) ... governmental vets. After the one year booster, it is not needed yearly. The pups that get the vaccine every three years and live in places with low rates of rabies still have to be protected. So not sure why if it's good enough for these dogs, it's not good enough for the pups in areas with a high rate of rabies. Bottom line is they are all required to be protected and the three year vaccine has been shown to do that.

One year boosters are pretty important. Titers are questionable. And there are major differences between killed, modified live, and recombinant vaccines. Duration of immunity will vary quite a bit between the types, so it's not as easy as saying one year booster then no more.

Thank you for clearing some of the things up. As for one year boosters and rabies, is it one year from when they last got their puppy shot? or is it when they turn one year old?

From Dr. Dodd's vaccine schedule, it says to give MLV Distemper and parovirus. Is it always the case with HA2PPVs? or do I need to ask my vet whether it is MLV? Same with rabie shots. do we get to choose and say we want a killed one? or does it always come as killed?

lastly, I think that is what I read as well regarding the same vaccination amount on both large and small breeds. is there a scientific research where I can read more about it?

Thanks so much!

[Ellie May]

It shouldn't make that much difference. I'd personally go about a year after the last puppy vaccine.

Rabies vaccines are always killed.
DHPP is MLV. I think there is a recombinant distemper available now. Most vets would probably carry the MLV. Recombinant are interesting, but less seems to be known about them.

I don't. Read it somewhere. Could try PubMed.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

My dogs are not outdoors too much, and I have a 5 year old yorkie that I have not gave booster rabie vaccinations for and he is fine. Isn't it only when you come into contact with squirels, rats, etc that you get the disease? Correct me if I'm wrong. I just heard of so many side effects with rabies that I would rather not give it unless he's an outdoor dog.

concretegurl: I wonder what the difference between one year booster and three year booster is. Is it more potent than the one year?

Mardelin: Don't know for sure, but I read somewhere that only that amount will trigger the immune system, despite the weight of the dog. Same thing with the vaccines administered to a 80 lb person and a 200 lb person. This was someone's comment, so I'm wondering myself if it is true.

Why would you want to take the chance of your dog getting something that is not curable and will kill them. All it takes is for them to be outside for a minute and a rabid animal to come bite them and then your dog would have to be put down. I personally have never heard of bad reactions to the rabies vaccine. Never ever would I chance my dog getting something that will kill them.

[Britster]

My whole issue is more along the lines of just following the law. I think the chances are fairly slim (but of course possible) for my dog to get bitten by a rabid animal and he's outside a lot. I'm more worried that legally, if my dog has not had the rabies vaccine (which he gets every 3yrs - MD law) they could take him away from me. Jackson has never bit anybody, but what if he did, out of fear, or whatever, and they had to "test" him for rabies? Well, the only way to test for rabies is to kill the dog, as far as I know. So I would never risk breaking the law and losing my dog and there being nothing I could do about it.

Jackson got DHPP at 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 15 weeks. Then he got rabies around 19 weeks old. Then DHPP again at 1 year and rabies again at 1 year. I'm fairly certain the only vaccine he will get again for the rest of his life will be rabies because it's required by law. Although, 3 years from now, I will judge whether I believe it in his benefit to get DHPP again. And that's every 3yrs. I would never give rabies vaccine every year-- way too much!

[Ellie May]

There is a fine line to walk. Rabies can kill dogs and people. The rabies vaccine can also potentially cause death, esp. in toy breed pups. All healthy dogs should be kept UTD with rabies vaccines, but there actually may be more risks to giving the shot if the pup is 100% indoor. Ellie gets it and is always watched outside. It's the right thing to do (IMO). I have really thought long and hard about that though.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

thanks dvlshangel985, I'll be following this routine with few exceptions: Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs
I have heard that it is safer to vaccinate the combo vaccines separately. However, our vet only has it in the combination form of DA2PPV, so that won't be likely. After the three puppy shots, I'll give them one year booster shot of DA2PPV (and maybe rabies?) as their last shot, and WILL NOT give any more vaccinations for the rest of their lives including rabies. I don't think my dogs will ever bite anyone, and I dont' get how anyone would find out whether my dogs are up to date on rabies and fine me for it. Any thoughts on this?

Well, do you register your dogs with the city/county? I moved and plan to move again, so I really haven't looked into this for the area I'm in now. In my area animal control gives a rats behind about dogs, so they don't check up on who is and who is not registering their dogs, at least I think that's how they work. I've never actually seen them. But in areas like Torrance, CA close to where I plan to move to, Animal Control will fine anyone who isn't in compliance. That means having all pups up to date on all shots, including rabies. You need proof of that to get the license that the pup must wear at all times. And it's an ugly one too. If you get fined, you have to go to court and I'm sure they'll ask for all your documentation and reasons towards not registering your dog.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

Thank you for clearing some of the things up. As for one year boosters and rabies, is it one year from when they last got their puppy shot? or is it when they turn one year old?

From Dr. Dodd's vaccine schedule, it says to give MLV Distemper and parovirus. Is it always the case with HA2PPVs? or do I need to ask my vet whether it is MLV? Same with rabie shots. do we get to choose and say we want a killed one? or does it always come as killed?

lastly, I think that is what I read as well regarding the same vaccination amount on both large and small breeds. is there a scientific research where I can read more about it?

Thanks so much!

This is my understanding as well. We follow AAHA guidelines on vaccines. I am not comfortable taking a minimalist approach to vaccines such as titers at this time so I stick with AAHA.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

My vet disregarded any of the vaccinations my puppies received because he said they were too young and started their DA2PPV shots ALL OVER AGAIN at 8 weeks. They just had their second shot, and will get their third and last shot at 5 months along with their rabies. My concern is, am I over-vaccinating them? Should I have started with the second set instead of starting all over again?

Also, after the initial puppy vaccinations, I'm curious on how often members here re-vaccinate your puppies. Is there a law that require certain vaccinations over the years? rabies shots?

Also, Is it normal to get the ONE YEAR booster shots after completing puppy vaccination series ? I'm debating whether I should even get this done. After the one year shots though, they won't be receiving any more shots for their lifetime.

I only do the puppy shots and that is at approx 10 weeks old 14 weeks old and then 18 weeks old. They can be boostered one year after that last puppy vaccination if you want to. Alternately, you can have a titer done to see what levels of immunization are still there.
I do the 4 way only do not allow them to include Corona virus or lepto.
NEver ever let your Vet do rabies in combo with any other vacc's
Never allow your Vet to vaccinate at the same time as any surgery when they are under anesthesia or had anesthesia that day.
I would be looking for a new Vet given what your vet is wanting to do.
BUT some states require different things as State laws. We dont have that issue here in Canada.

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Well, do you register your dogs with the city/county? I moved and plan to move again, so I really haven't looked into this for the area I'm in now. In my area animal control gives a rats behind about dogs, so they don't check up on who is and who is not registering their dogs, at least I think that's how they work. I've never actually seen them. But in areas like Torrance, CA close to where I plan to move to, Animal Control will fine anyone who isn't in compliance. That means having all pups up to date on all shots, including rabies. You need proof of that to get the license that the pup must wear at all times. And it's an ugly one too. If you get fined, you have to go to court and I'm sure they'll ask for all your documentation and reasons towards not registering your dog.

Didn't know Torrance was so strict. Im from Anaheim hills, and I've also lived in LA as well, and both cities never checked rather the dog was up to date. Same with NY. I don't think anyone really cared whether I had a dog or not, more so his shots. That's why I thought it was more of a personal choice for small breed dog owners because they are not out in the yard without my watch, they are too small to really bite anyone nor would they bite, etc.

I will consider rabies shot, but that's about it as fars as the shots go. I've been reading many artcles and they said most vaccines immunize for life. I will tither a little after one year to make sure they are fully immunized, and thats about it.

concretegurl: your "vaccine junkie" article really confirmed everything i was reading about. Thank you! Did you read there that they only recommend two puppy shots (one at 12 and other at 16 weeks)? and then a booster at one year and they are set for life. never heard of two puppy shots instead of three. wonder if it actually works bc my puppies just finished their second shots.

Lorraine: great advice. I have a question for all though. My vet keeps reassuring me he'll be fine if he gets the rabies and third puppy shot at the same time, and says i can't wait til 6 months because it's NY law. I've told him I've been researching and she keeps talking so confidently that I'm getting confused myself. Help? and how do I let her know without "hurting her feelings that she's wrong? (she's a friends friend)

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

Didn't know Torrance was so strict. Im from Anaheim hills, and I've also lived in LA as well, and both cities never checked rather the dog was up to date. Same with NY. I don't think anyone really cared whether I had a dog or not, more so his shots. That's why I thought it was more of a personal choice for small breed dog owners because they are not out in the yard without my watch, they are too small to really bite anyone nor would they bite, etc.

I will consider rabies shot, but that's about it as fars as the shots go. I've been reading many artcles and they said most vaccines immunize for life. I will tither a little after one year to make sure they are fully immunized, and thats about it.

concretegurl: your "vaccine junkie" article really confirmed everything i was reading about. Thank you! Did you read there that they only recommend two puppy shots (one at 12 and other at 16 weeks)? and then a booster at one year and they are set for life. never heard of two puppy shots instead of three. wonder if it actually works bc my puppies just finished their second shots.

Lorraine: great advice. I have a question for all though. My vet keeps reassuring me he'll be fine if he gets the rabies and third puppy shot at the same time, and says i can't wait til 6 months because it's NY law. I've told him I've been researching and she keeps talking so confidently that I'm getting confused myself. Help? and how do I let her know without "hurting her feelings that she's wrong? (she's a friends friend)

I have been fighting the same fight with my vet. Actually no fight. He tells me what he wants to do, I told him "no" this is what I will do and that is what we do. I brought a copy of this with me: Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs So he knows I am not just making it up. He is not happy with the 6 months for Rabies either, but I reminded him that I did it his way and had two dogs have bad reactions. One got hives and the other really was sick to the point I thought I was going to lose her. Both had rabies with their last combo vaccines way too early. So, he goes along with what I want and is not mad or anything. He just thinks I have the wrong idea but that it will not hurt anything. Since I started doing it this way -- I have had no adverse reactions at all. Granted, there were only 2 before, but one of those was close to lethal! So, I take no chances. I would like to go completely without as I do not think my dogs have much risk factor at all. But since I never know if I might be in a position where they need to be around other dogs (like hurricane evacuation), I go ahead and give what I have to.

[ChocoMilk]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I have been fighting the same fight with my vet. Actually no fight. He tells me what he wants to do, I told him "no" this is what I will do and that is what we do. I brought a copy of this with me: Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs So he knows I am not just making it up. He is not happy with the 6 months for Rabies either, but I reminded him that I did it his way and had two dogs have bad reactions. One got hives and the other really was sick to the point I thought I was going to lose her. Both had rabies with their last combo vaccines way too early. So, he goes along with what I want and is not mad or anything. He just thinks I have the wrong idea but that it will not hurt anything. Since I started doing it this way -- I have had no adverse reactions at all. Granted, there were only 2 before, but one of those was close to lethal! So, I take no chances. I would like to go completely without as I do not think my dogs have much risk factor at all. But since I never know if I might be in a position where they need to be around other dogs (like hurricane evacuation), I go ahead and give what I have to.

omg! I'm sorry to hear that they had such a bad reactions. That must have been a horrifying experience. These vets get me so angry! I don't get how they could recommend me things that might harm the pets. What if I hadn't researched? it's so hard arguing with them too because they have that "I'm the doctor I know it all" attitude. ugh. I wish I could speak out and firmly put my foot down but she's a friends friend so I dont know what to say when she keeps saying "no, trust me. don't worry about it they wil lbe FINE".

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

Didn't know Torrance was so strict. Im from Anaheim hills, and I've also lived in LA as well, and both cities never checked rather the dog was up to date. Same with NY. I don't think anyone really cared whether I had a dog or not, more so his shots. That's why I thought it was more of a personal choice for small breed dog owners because they are not out in the yard without my watch, they are too small to really bite anyone nor would they bite, etc.

I will consider rabies shot, but that's about it as fars as the shots go. I've been reading many artcles and they said most vaccines immunize for life. I will tither a little after one year to make sure they are fully immunized, and thats about it.

concretegurl: your "vaccine junkie" article really confirmed everything i was reading about. Thank you! Did you read there that they only recommend two puppy shots (one at 12 and other at 16 weeks)? and then a booster at one year and they are set for life. never heard of two puppy shots instead of three. wonder if it actually works bc my puppies just finished their second shots.

Lorraine: great advice. I have a question for all though. My vet keeps reassuring me he'll be fine if he gets the rabies and third puppy shot at the same time, and says i can't wait til 6 months because it's NY law. I've told him I've been researching and she keeps talking so confidently that I'm getting confused myself. Help? and how do I let her know without "hurting her feelings that she's wrong? (she's a friends friend)

No dog is to small to bite

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by ChocoMilk

omg! I'm sorry to hear that they had such a bad reactions. That must have been a horrifying experience. These vets get me so angry! I don't get how they could recommend me things that might harm the pets. What if I hadn't researched? it's so hard arguing with them too because they have that "I'm the doctor I know it all" attitude. ugh. I wish I could speak out and firmly put my foot down but she's a friends friend so I don't know what to say when she keeps saying "no, trust me. don't worry about it they will be FINE".

I had the same issues with dealing with my Elvis having cluster seizures and trying to get help, the vet felt he didn't need medication because they weren't happening close enough together, the common medications were not really meant for small dogs, the side effects of the meds were as damaging as not medicating him, and all the while I'm seeing my dog having seizures and loosing some basic abilities and going back with my concerns and being told he'll not live long at some point in the near future I will be making quality of life determinations for him etc...then I started talking to people on YT about it. Many of their dogs smaller than mine have been taking phenobarbital, they got their animals fixed, the severity of cluster seizures actually should be taken more seriously than regularly occurring single seizures...basically I had someone whom was an authority in the matter telling me my concerns were unjustified and I needed to take their advice and that of their colleges because they had degrees in the matter...well I'm meeting a new vet now...might not work for you but you have to do what's best for your dog even if you have someone who tells you they know more than you and you are confused and don't really know what you are talking about, if I could go back I would have asserted myself in the beginning and have said either you treat this with urgency or I'm leaving instead of going back and forth and having left anyways, maybe just informing her you made your decision and this is what you an leave it on her to either accept your decision or not...I know its hard to advocate for yourself when you are ended up "arguing" with the very person you are seeking sound advice from...but in the end if something doesn't feel right you have to do what you know to be right and trust it. I'm so thankful I met so many informed people on here with my issue so I felt justified in my choice and well when my concerns weren't taken seriously I seriously found a vet...