This pup or another?
 

Hi! I am brand new here and have been learning so much from reading past posts. This forum is SUCH a wonderful resource! :)

I agonized over whether or not to post a request for advice, but figured I had nothing to lose and maybe you all could help me decide what to do.

I have a unique opportunity to purchase a yorkie from a neighbor. I have completely fallen in love with this particular dog, and I have been looking for a dog for about five years now, ever since my companion animal, a cat, died of cancer. I had not at all considered a yorkie until I met this particular pup who I seemed to be forging a relationship with -- and I have met many dogs in the past five years.

But there are a few things which make me hesitate.

So let me tall you about the pup. He was from an "accidental" breeding. The six year old female is not spayed because the grown daughter of the woman who cares for the dog did not want to neuter her dog. Meanwhile, the woman who cares for the dog has a sister whose boyfriend has an unneutered yorkie. The dogs were "only together one time." But, as you all know, that is all it takes.

The woman who cares for the pup is a good neighbor who has been friends with members of my husband's family. So I do not want to offend her, and am trying to approach this whole situation with friendliness and compassion.

Of course, the advantage to all of this is that I actually get to visit the pup every single day (which I am doing and enjoying). The pup is only six weeks old and not ready to go home with me yet, of course. So I really enjoy being with him while he is so young and seeing how he is socialized. He really loves being with me and already knows me and comes to me when I call him. He is rambunctious, curious and full of energy, but when I hold him or speak to him, he immediately gives me his full attention and sits quietly for me. He is one of the brightest pups I have ever seen, in fact. He is even already trained to his puppy pad near his little pen. :)

I went to the vet with the owner to get the pup a check up and his second series of shots. The vet said that not only was the pup in excellent health, but he is "robust." This pup is already two pounds and very active. The vet says the pup may actually get to be fifteen pounds, although both his parents are very tiny (mom is 4.5 pounds, dad is 4 pounds).

Here are some pix of the pup, his mom, and his cousin. There is more I can tell you, and I'm sure you will all have a billion questions but here is a start.

A couple more things you should know is that I volunteer with the local SPCA so am not ignorant about animals and breeders. In fact, I am one of those people who is very cautious about where animals come from and their histories (can you tell I have been burnt more than once by the pet industry? Yes, I knew that you could ;)).

Most importantly, I need to train any dog I get as a service dog (I have a serious disability). In fact, I have an appointment to take this pup, at my own expense, to get evaluated by a professional organization which trains service dogs next week.

Anyway, what I am having qualms with includes (1) the dog is predicted to get so big while the parents are so small; (2) that, by purchasing the pup, I my be encouraging "accidental" breedings; (3) that I do not like some of the behaviors the pup is picking up at his current home, (4) that I will not get a standard breeder contract but that I am paying quite a lot for the dog.

Am I worrying too much, or are these legitimate concerns?

It sounds like you have very genuine concerns......
first ,yes it does seem like this pup will be on the big side,there can never be a guarntee of size but if you are wanting a smaller yorkie chances are you would be disappointed.second yes buying pups from accidental breedings does encourage byb to breed indiscriminatly for profit.Lastly if they are asking a hefty amount and not willing to offer you some guarantee on an unregistered yorkie , I would look elsewheres, ask them are what kind of health tests have either parents had?These people would need to justify their asking price.however if you have already fallen for the yorkie do what you feel is right for you .Best of luck in your decision :)

Adorable dog. The "quite a lot" of money for an accidental breeding of pets and no papers or guarantees would turn me away. I think your neighbor should be asking only what is necessary to cover costs, at most.

Thanks, danyellm.

They are not in a hurry to sell him and are not advertising him for sale. It really does seem like a genuine accident -- or at least they were only careless. I will not be able to get a health guarantee from them in the sales contract. However, the vet did say she would sign a letter stating that the dog should be able to give service as a healthy dog for four to six years (which is what the dog training facility asks for).

The owners will give me all the paperwork I need so I can register the dog with the AKC myself.

They are asking $500 for the dog. What do you think?

Does all of this sound reasonable?

I'm one who prefers the bigger size in a yorkie. I would think, depending on what you are having him do as a service dog, that it might actually work to his advantage. Big enough to do some work without getting injured and yet still small enough to be easily portable, not eat huge amounts, etc. It really is hard to guestimate his adult weight at this point though, especially since they all go through growth spurts and he could just be ahead of the curve right now. Most vets and breeders will say you get the best guess of what the adult weight will be if you double the weight at 12 weeks.

Are there specific behaviors that are concerning you with this pup? At 6 weeks, he is just starting to exhibit his personality and still learning a lot from being with his mom and litter mates. Bad habits the home environment is teaching him can be re-trained in most cases with patience and consistency.

Why is he having his second round of shots at only 6 weeks? That is too early for even his first set.

I'm pretty vocal with my opinion that there is no such thing as an accidental breeding- by failing to spay or neuter they were planning on having an accident. I wouldn't be as worried about an AKC registration with a pup who was going to be a service dog, because I would assume from that you have no intention of breeding him & will have him neutered asap and registration isn't a requirement for any service program that I am aware of.

The health guarantee is a concern as is the lack of pre-breeding testing and that may be something you want to use to your advantage in negotiating a better price. If price is a real concern here, you might want to consider a re-homed pet from a rescue or even an older pup from a reputable breeder. If you volunteer with the SPCA, I'm sure they can point you in the direction of a young dog who would love to be your companion animal.

I agree. Size really doesn't phase me much. Just because the parents are small, doesn't mean that somewhere in the past 3 or 4 generations of this pup's lineage are dogs that have reached the 15 lb range. If this dog is to be a service animal, I think a bigger "robust" yorkie could be of more service than a tiny yorkie, since they require extra care.
As far as supporting uneducated breeders, after what I've learned here, I would hesitate also.

Oh, sorry. I just talked with the vet and it was the first set. This would be the first dog I would have since I was a teen, so I'm not as knowledgeable as I wish I were.

I TOTALLY agree with you, which is why I am hesitating.

Again, totally agree. Yes, he will be neutered at the first opportunity. I've already spoken to the vet about it.

Yep. You're right. Personally I don't care about the registration. I am not really the kind of person who cares about those things. I have had some very bad experiences with so-called legitimate breeders as well. But if I am paying a lot of money, I expect the breeder to provide the paperwork.

Price is not a concern. I can pay full price for an excellent pedigree -- better than this pup. I am also willing to wait -- as I already have since I have been looking for five years. But if I pay for a purebred pup either here or elsewhere I expect to have all the paperwork the breeder is willing to offer.

What annoys me is when some guy gets a stud fee for "accidentally" breeding his dog then telling me I cannot have a copy of that pedigree.

Thanks for pointing all this out. I totally agree with you on all points.

So my husband and I spoke with the woman today -- she said I could get copies of the parent's pedigree and meet the father of the dog. Se also told my husband that she would put it in writing that the dog could be returned at any time for any reason in the future.

The vet is willing to sign a letter that the dog does not have any hereditary yorkie conditions.

But the way, the “accidental breeder” is only asking $500 -- half of which has already gone to the puppy’s and mom’s vet bills and the other half to the father's owner. I told the woman who has the puppy that I didn't think the father’s owner should get a stud fee if the breeding was an "accident." She said the father's owner did not have his dog neutered.

The price is not an issue. By the time the dog is raised and trained I will have spent quite a lot of money. I can afford to pay more for a dog of excellent lineage. I just happened to meet and like this dog.

What do you think? Is the "breeder" being reasonable?

So, I just wanted to add that I did not necessarily intend to get a yorkie. Just happened to be what this pup is.

So my husband and I spoke with the woman today -- she said I could get copies of the parent's pedigree and meet the father of the dog. Se also told my husband that she would put it in writing that the dog could be returned at any time for any reason in the future.

The vet is willing to sign a letter that the dog does not have any hereditary yorkie conditions.

But the way, the “accidental breeder” is only asking $500 -- half of which has already gone to the puppy’s and mom’s vet bills and the other half to the father's owner. I told the woman who has the puppy that I didn't think the father’s owner should get a stud fee if the breeding was an "accident." She said the father's owner did not have his dog neutered.

What do you think? Is the "breeder" being reasonable?

You mentioned you were disabled, would you pysically be able to handle a 15# pup?

If your bonded with the pup and both parents are healthy then this might be a good match for you. The one thing that would concern me (if I was in your shoes) is if the pup is healthy. If she doesnt have a contract, what happens if this pup ends up with a genetic illness? I wouldnt get this pup without a contract, but also she is your neighbor--she could be trustworthy. Its ur call.

I think it will have to be your call ultimately. You're right, an accidental breeding is not to be "commended", BUT honestly if they took the mom and the pup to the vet and will be getting his vaccines, check ups, etc. there I think $500 is a very reasonable adoption fee IMO.

It sounds like you have examined all the pros and cons. The price is reasonable and the dog is beautiful. Go for it!! Best wishes to you!

Thank you all very much for your kind and wise comments.

I told the "accidental breeder" tonight that I would not be taking the pup.

I am very VERY sad, but my conscience just would not let me reward people for carelessness. Especially since I accidentally heard some of the dog's human family say that now they should breed the dogs again.

My husband has been very supportive and says he thinks I made the right decision (he did not want to influence me so only listened to me until I decided). And the pup is very cute with a great personality, so I am sure the dog will find the right home soon.

Well, back to the drawing board of looking for a pup to train as a service dog. Sigh.

But at least three good things came out of this. First, I started walking again (in preparations for walking a dog) which is very good for my disability. Secondly, the whole experience made me decide to become more assertive about finding the right dog, asking the tough questions, and not just waiting for any dog to come along. And finally, I met some other responsible dog owners locally, including a yorkie person just around the corner from me whom I can talk to! ;)

Thanks again, everyone, for talking with me today. You all made a world of difference to me. You really helped!

Without knowing what your disability is, it is not possible to judge whether his adult size will be a plus. He is going to be too small to give physical support but a bit big to carry around and,say, just alert you to a pending episode of some kind. He will be a good size to leash train and walk with you if that would meet your needs.
I don't believe in "accidental" breedings either. One or the other should have been altered or they should have never even been in the same house.
You will have to trust that your neighbor will not see these "accidents" as profitable and decide to allow the same thing to happen again.
Use your best judgement and do what you think is right regardless of how the neighbor feels. You will have that baby for 10-15 years. Believe me, you will NEVER take him back to the breeder. You are already in love with that puppy as you should be if you buy him. He will always be a "pet" if he doesn't work out as a service dog.
Can you search the pedigree and try to find out past conditions in his lines? That would be a start in the right direction. The best of lines could possibly still have an occasional problem, though.
Good luck!!

I have to admit - if the vet has already 'signed off' on the health (there are no guarantees - no matter what is in writting) - and if you have already bonded with the pup - then i absolutely say "go for it!"

I could never deny anyone the joy that my lil yorkie has brought me. Its a love like none other. You said that you're around several other dogs and this one is special.

Good luck and welcome to YT!

I see you have decided not to take the pup, Im sorry to hear that and I hope you find yourself another pup soon.
I think if you over heard family saying they should breed the dog again then you did the right thing, because that could mean this wasnt an accident or even if it was the next litter sure wont be.
Either way the pup is gorgeous and Im sure he will find a good home, Good luck on your search.

Good luck in your search for a service pup.

Wishing you luck in your search for the right dog. I am sorry for the difficult decision you had to make.

Oh, this was no "accident". IMO, these people sound like "backyard breeders". Again IMO, I know you have fallen in love with this little guy but I think you may want to consider looking elsewhere for a pup. I just feel problems coming your way down the line. Sorry. Also, I do agree that if you are going to use him as a service dog, a "larger" or as we here on YT like to call them. "teapot" sized Yorkie would be your best option. Good luck and please keep us posted.

Thanks again everyone. I am really sad about the dog because I got very attached to the little guy. However, I believe I made the right decision. Plus I was told by a couple of animal experts locally that I also made the right decision.

The good news is that I learned a great deal from this experience -- not only what to avoid in a dog, but what to look for as well. :)

I am still keeping the appointment with the service dog organization tomorrow. The organization suggested that, at no cost to me, even though I had decided to not take the dog and have him evaluated (which I would have had to pay for and in which they would have made some money). So I will get a chance to learn more about what kind of dog to look for regarding my own individual needs.

Thanks again for all your help. This is one of the nicest forums of the most helpful people I have ever been on! :D

Okay, so my saga continues, believe it or not. Whew!

I've talked with the pup's breeder some more (we are neighbors, so the conversations just sort of happened).

Now, I'm pretty convinced that the pup's breeding was not as thoughtless as I had earlier believed, and that the breeder is more ignorant and innocent than anything. I had misunderstood some of what she told me earlier.

Apparently, the breeder and the owner of the stud -- both strictly pets -- really did intend to breed the dogs, it just happened earlier "by accident" than they had intended.

The pup seems really healthy and has an excellent temperament. I really love this dog. He is seven weeks and knows me instantly the moment he hears my voice. He comes right to me, even if I haven't called him -- just as soon as I come in the door to the house. I took him a frozen nylabone for teething dogs this weekend, and he dragged it off joyfully, even though it is much longer than him! It was hilarious, and he is so adorable and sweet. He fell asleep on my lap yesterday.

I think the breeder would really like to see me take this pup because she is being so careful about the home he goes to, and she knows quite a few people in my husband's family pretty well. She knows I love the pup, and he loves me. She is not advertising the dog for sale anywhere, only going through personal referrals from her friends. She has bred dogs only twice, and only during the past six years. Each of the first three dogs went to homes of friends or relatives. This one pup was the only one in the litter.

I have been educating this breeder/neighbor about OFA, CERT and COI. She was completely ignorant about all of that. I think she really meant well but just didn't think about it. She is very open to what information I have been sharing with her.

Anyway, she got me a copy of the father's registration. I am trying really hard to get a pedigree going back 8 to 10 generations -- or even just four. But I am having a hard time finding any information on the sire, so far. The pup's sire's sire and dam do not have regular kennel names. I do have their registration numbers and one DNA number from the sire's sire

But cannot figure out how to get information on the AKC website without having to pay $10 each for the sire and dam's pedigrees -- and the pedigree may or may not exist, for all I know.

Does anyone know if there are free online databases that I can use to trace the pedigree, even if I have to enter one registration number at a time for each generation?

I am not sure where the ancestors of the sire and dam came from. But both the sire and dam are in great health and both are four or more years old.

What do you think? If you were me, would you just take the risk and buy the dog?

I am having a hard time saying no to such an adorable pup. I am not the sort of person to buy a dog on a whim. The last dog I had was in my teens, so I have resisted all this time because I was too busy or other pets (usually cats, and not many of those). But now I have the time to devote to a pup.

Ideas? Anyone?

Honestly, I'd go with you gut. I understand that you are attached and I believe it! These dogs have such charm!

I will say though, one of my best friends trains service dogs and she hardly ever trains smaller dogs. Now, i'm not sure about your disability, so I cannot say a yorkie wouldn't work. However, these little dogs tend to be stubborn and if you are already hesitant about some things with his current environment, it might be harder to train.

Also, are you able to handle 15lbs with your disability? Not sure if this is the case, but wanted to point it out.

In the end, it's whatever you want to do!
Good Luck!

Actually, the trainer who specializes in training service dogs, and who is herself disabled, was very impressed with the videos of the pup interacting with children, a teen and the other dogs.

Small will work just fine for my disability. My disability is neurological, and my motor skill issues do not affect my ability to lift and carry -- weight wise, anyway. And, of course, no one is exactly certain how big the pup will get. He could be smaller than that. His sire is not quite four pounds and the dam is four and a half pounds. (I think he is so big and healthy because he is getting all his mom's milk to himself.)

First I will say there is no way that puppy is going to weigh 15 pounds full grown, the vet is wrong..lol According to the charts he should not be over 7-8 pounds. The puppy may just be very well fed it sounds like that to me. And he may even slow down on weight growth once he is away from his litter and even out.

Accidental litters have happened since dogs first walked the earth and there will always be, there is no changing ignorance in most cases. I have owned many dogs in my life that were from accidental litters.

I don't think you would be encouraging them to do it some more, if they are going to do it again that wont be your fault. The puppy is here and needs a good loving home. You have been lucky to see how well these pups are cared for and been part of it. You know your getting a wonderful puppy.

How much are they charging for the puppy?

Because this is an accidental breeding your not going to get a guarantee and that has to be your choice if you can live with that or not. Most breeders guarantees are not worth much anyhow because they exclude so much. If this were a breeder my opinion would be different of course.

I think you are in a great position, you are already attached to this puppy and I see no reason not to get him. Shoot, I don't know any breeders that would allow anyone else go to the vet appointment with them. And you got to, plus hear from the vets mouth how healthy he was:D

~~Lin~~

I think that is reasonable for a purebred yorkie, accidental or not, that is a fair price. But I would ask them if they would take less. Cannot hurt to ask.

The reason I say the price is fair is because this litter of pups have been well cared for, taken to the vet, been very well socialized, and they aren't pushing the pups out by 8 weeks. It sounds like they have pup a lot of time, and money into the litter.

I just read again, you will also get papers on this pup? Girl if you don't go for it I just might..hehe..

Seriously though, I think you should buy this puppy.

are they going to get the parents fixed now too?
Lin

Yep, total deal breaker right there, I don't blame you for saying no! Sounds like it was a planned accident to see if they could sell them before breeding more later.

Good luck in your search, sounds like your off to a good start..;)

~~Lin

Just want you all to know that I bought the pup today. He will not come home with me for awhile, of course, because he still needs to be with his mom -- and she is SUCH a good mother! But she lives right across the street so I am able to visit him each day.

My niece and I went over today twice! We couldn't get enough of this pup and the other two Yorkies. They are such sweeties.

I can't believe I actually have a Yorkie! One of the last breeds I ever thought I would get, but he stole my heart! :)

I am a bit nervous -- it has been so long since I have had a dog -- but also VERY excited!

The service dog trainer will meet him day after tomorrow. I think she is as excited as I am! :D

Here is a pic of him and his mom that I took today with my phone.

Congratulations!!! Yipee!!

$500 is too much in my opinion - Tank came with papers, some food, a toy, and a bunch of info, and we only paid $750 for him. Granted, he was 18 weeks when we got him, but still. I would pay enough to cover all the vet costs, but that's about it, considering the fact that this was an oops litter and there's no guarantee or anything.