YorkieTalk.com Forums - Yorkshire Terrier Community - Anyone see the BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed?

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- - Anyone see the BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-yorkshire-terrier-discussion/191520-anyone-see-bbc-pedigree-dogs-exposed.html)

AmyChristine

12-10-2009 08:28 PM

Anyone see the BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed?

What are your thoughts? I am watching it right now, and have been nearly brought to tears twice. The thought of culling healthy puppies that don't meet standard breaks my heart. I don't get why these breeders don't just alter and place them? I know that this is probably more dramatized and they are choosing to showcase this to get more of a reaction. I also know that most the breeder/exhibitors that I have met or talked to don't follow the practices showcased, but still this makes me so sad. It also worries me that people will get the wrong idea that all breeder/exhibitors are like this and not support good breeders that are in it for the right reasons. It is so sad to see a sick pet, so this really hits home for me. I would love to hear other opinions on this expose'

MauiGirl

12-10-2009 08:34 PM

I only saw parts of it on the Today show, and thought it was so sad. I don't know enough about it all to sort facts from over exagerated fiction. Some of the opinions will be controversial among breeders, but regardless it is just so sad to see dogs suffering genetic consequences, no matter what the real reason is.

Darlene68

12-10-2009 08:54 PM

I don't know if this is the same show I watched, sounds like it and I found it very sad :( The changes in some of the breeds over that last century for the sake of aesthetics is unbelievable.

livingdustmops

12-10-2009 08:56 PM

Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html

AmyChristine

12-10-2009 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darlene68 (Post 2911176)

I don't know if this is the same show I watched, sounds like it and I found it very sad :( The changes in some of the breeds over that last century for the sake of aesthetics is unbelievable.

That was the most shocking part to me, that some breeds had not changed for functionality but were actually bred to be so deformed that it was unable to function. Just like people that try to breed down our yorkie, or not do health testing, it is just unfair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911177)

Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html

I missed this one thankyou:)

Lilyshuman

12-10-2009 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911177)

Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html

Thank you for your input and information, as usual I have again gained something very valuable from your posting.
This comes so timely to me as I am selecting a male for our breeding program.
As a newbie it is so easy to get distracted by beautiful dogs and I can see how one could get numb to the information in this documentary. I do not totally agree with the way this portrays show breeders as I have talked very personally with numerous and for the majority they love their dogs and really want the best for the breed.

But for me personally this has brought my initial intentions to the forefront of my mind. Thank you to YT'ers once again for providing me with accountability, education, and a renewal of determination to better our breed the healthy, happy, loving, sassy, big hearted, vivacious Yorkshire Terrier!:love:

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilyshuman (Post 2911275)

I could be wrong but since I believe you are wanting to breed Yorkies many of the showbreeders you are talking with are Yorkie breeders. I believe they all believe they love their dogs but ask them to start telling the world when one of their dogs has Liver Shunt and it will be another story. It has long been a big secret (and still is) that is hidden and many of these dogs continue to breed. Ask how many of these show breeders cut the vocal cords on their dogs because their barking drives them nuts. How many of these dogs just live in cages and are not part of the family. I could go on and on about some show breeders (I am not just talking about Yorkies) but I am sure you understand what I am saying.

I do believe there are wonderful breeders who do love their dogs but I believe the purebred dog world is a place that is not always kind to dogs especially in the breeding process.

JeanieK

12-11-2009 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911530)

And they say that we, non-show, hobby breeders ared unethical.

Lilyshuman

12-11-2009 07:53 AM

Yes Cindy I do believe this is true as well. It's actually the reason I selected Mia from the States. And your right that the breeders who are hiding medical issues of ANY kind should be exposed. I find in Canada the inbreeding is getting very bad and the yorkies face is starting to "smooch" in.
And like I said in my earlier comment I have been doing some serious thinking on the direction of my own breeding program.

I also think Yorkie talk and forums like it are helping to expose bad breeding practices and highlight the good ones.
It gives the regular pet buyer a little look at behind the scene.

As an example... In Calgary, where I live, we have a no kill shelter but no yorkie rescues. When I first came on here I was aware of the puppy mills but not of all the practices. Now I've stopped shopping at stores that sell live dogs or cats and started supporting smaller businesses. But the best part is that now I have the knowledge to share with others... and I do all the time.

I guess the real question is how do people that are not show breeders or breeders at all help the situation?

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911537)

And they say that we, non-show, hobby breeders ared unethical.

Sorry but non-show breeders do the same things...and many breed out of standard on size, breed LP and other issues etc. I also know many that never do any testing of their dogs and they have buried Liver Shunt just as much. All I have to do is look at a breeders contract to know if they really care about their dogs and their ethics...their contract's will state that they will always take the dog back ... no matter what.

It is all about the ethics of the breeders and if they are trying to produce the very best no matter what the cost is. I happen to believe that you will never know if you are producing the best unless you go into the showring. You can never understand the structure or the movement of a dog from pictures and it is always helpful to have other eyes look your dogs over. This is my opinion.

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilyshuman (Post 2911554)

As an example... In Calgary, where I live, we have a no kill shelter but no yorkie rescues. When I first came on here I was aware of the puppy mills but not of all the practices. Now I've stopped shopping at stores that sell live dogs or cats and started supporting smaller businesses. But the best part is that now I have the knowledge to share with others... and I do all the time.

I guess the real question is how do people that are not show breeders or breeders at all help the situation?

Yes, sadly Canada has many puppymills and actually horse issues (I won't go into here) as I believe it is a means for the farmers to make $$$ just like in the states with USDA breeders. The Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) does have Yorkie rescue but I believe most of it is done in the east (Toronto etc).

I think people who are not breeders or into rescue can help so much with educating themselves first and then the public whenever they can and to help pass laws for inhumane treatment of animals. I believe if you own an animal you should be doing tons of research (not just on YT or TV) but in general about your animals. Just because you do not have a problem with your dog doesn't mean you won't down the road so knowing as much as you can about animal husbandry is very important. I also think it is important to read both sides of an issue so you understand and can determine your path. I must have over 30 some books on dogs and am constantly looking things up on the internet because I enjoy it.

I do wish you luck with your path.:)

Lilyshuman

12-11-2009 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911579)

Thank you and you on yours:)
I am also a research junkie:p

JeanieK

12-11-2009 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911556)

Sorry but non-show breeders do the same things...and many breed out of standard on size, breed LP and other issues etc. I also know many that never do any testing of their dogs and they have buried Liver Shunt just as much. All I have to do is look at a breeders contract to know if they really care about their dogs and their ethics...their contract's will state that they will always take the dog back ... no matter what.

It is all about the ethics of the breeders and if they are trying to produce the very best no matter what the cost is. I happen to believe that you will never know if you are producing the best unless you go into the showring. You can never understand the structure or the movement of a dog from pictures and it is always helpful to have other eyes look your dogs over. This is my opinion.

You make a very valid point. But as we have seen, getting that ribbon does not mean that you have bred a healthy dog.

We hobby breeders have to maintain a reputation or our puppies would not sell. Not all holbby breeders are ethical, but not all of us are unethical either.

We don't have red pedigrees to sell our dogs, we don't mass produce and sell to pet stores and brokers, therefore we have to sell good quality puppies or our reputations will prevent us from selling anything.

So although going into the ring will help to evaluate your dog on the outside, it does not guarentee a quality dog on the inside.

I feel that breeding for looks and ignoring all else is far worse than breeding a non standard color.

I also wonder how long it will be before the yorkie show dogs go the way of so many other breeds.

I cannot speak for other hobby breeders, but my contract states that I will take my puppies back for any reason.

chachi

12-11-2009 08:35 AM

My quess is more show breeders are testing their sire and dams than non show breeders.

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911601)

You make a very valid point. But as we have seen, getting that ribbon does not mean that you have bred a healthy dog.

I agree it is all about the ethics of the breeder.

We hobby breeders have to maintain a reputation or our puppies would not sell. Not all holbby breeders are ethical, but not all of us are unethical either.

I agree.

We don't have red pedigrees to sell our dogs, we don't mass produce and sell to pet stores and brokers, therefore we have to sell good quality puppies or our reputations will prevent us from selling anything.

Well I wish I could agree with this but I can't...as an example how many people made the Dane brothers wealthy of the backs of dogs who were very unhealthy...Most people rush out and buy a puppy on a whim so as they say...there is a sucker born every minute. Also I have found many breeders will never tell on other poor breeders because it is all about the $$$ and no one cares if a few dogs die. I think you can be the worse breeder ever (we see it everyday on here) and people will still buy dogs from them.This includes showbreeders as well.

So although going into the ring will help to evaluate your dog on the outside, it does not guarentee a quality dog on the inside.

I believe this is somewhat true but I will tell you I was at a dog show (IABCA-AKC judge) and the judge kicked out a dog due to runny eyes. I also saw many dogs not get their orange card due to poor structure (which can affect the health of a dog) and the way the dog walked.

I feel that breeding for looks and ignoring all else is far worse than breeding a non standard color.

Totally agree and that is why I followed the whole BBC/Crufts thing to see what England and their Kennel Club would do and god bless them they have a heart and are making changes to the standards of many of these breeds that are suffering. It hasn't happen here yet but I believe it will one day. I believe if people would start going after breeders in the courts for the quality of dog they were sold you would see changes. Health should always be the number one priority. I loved how in England they are going to make the judges responsible for some of this...as they should. I have always hated AKC for their "turning a blind eye" to suffering of our dogs.
I also wonder how long it will be before the yorkie show dogs go the way of so many other breeds.

Actually I think some things are getting better for the Yorkies because of the internet and how the general public can read about everything that is going on and is getting educated to all issues. 10-20 years ago LS was not even discussed and it took one breeder (Teri Shumsky) to come out of the closet and become a champion of educating people on this awful disease. While I can see show breeders getting upset about the BBC documentary it is making them clean up their act and that can only be good for the dogs. As long as people have dirty little secrets it will never change. Most of the nations dogs are breed by people who bred for demand (i.e. the tinies because this is what the public wants) and will change if the public changes.

I cannot speak for other hobby breeders, but my contract states that I will take my puppies back for any reason.

As it should be, as far as I am concerned. If you are going to be bringing living creatures into this world you have a responsibility to these dogs. I don't believe it should be the government (shelters) or rescue responsibility to pay for all of these animals = which means us (taxes or donations) should have to pay for this. I would love to see a system where every dog that goes into a shelter/rescue the breeder would have to pay for the expense of finding it a new home. The animals would not be euthanized (as I could see breeder doing this) but a new home found as long as the animal was evaluated and deemed to be a good pet. I have never understood why the breeder makes $$$ but then is never responsible for these dogs again but I am as a taxpayer or a person who gives donations to rescue. I do not understand where my rights come in...I hear breeders talking about their right to breed anything they want and anytime they want.... sorry this is from another post that drives me nuts.....but with over 5million animals being put down every year someone is sucking in the $$$ and I (along with other taxpayers) am paying for it.

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chachi (Post 2911610)

My quess is more show breeders are testing their sire and dams than non show breeders.

I would guess the same but what level of testing? Just enough to get by with breeding? Many Yorkie breeders do not test for LS....they really do not want to find out and have to shut their lines down. I have seen breeders deny it was LS and find some strange disease to pin on the dog. Unless people and breeders are willing to neocropsy every puppy/dog that dies due to medical reasons we will never know how many are really dying of LS or Auto Immune or herpes or a number of diseases...this goes for owners also.

Again it goes back to the ethics of the breeder.

carmen in nj

12-11-2009 09:25 AM

all I can say is that it is sad what we had done to those poor dogs in the name of beauty.. I also have an open door policy, if for ANY reason my parents can't take care of the dog, I will take him or her back no questions asked,I will make sure my dogs, get a new home or stay with me.
I do wish we can take a hard look at what is happening and put our little grain of sand into help fixing it..
hugs,
Carmen in nj

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carmen in nj (Post 2911645)

Good for you and I agree everyone can help...education is empowering.

JeanieK

12-11-2009 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911630)

The Dane brothers are not Hobby breeders. They are puppy millers.

Perhaps all litters should have to be microchipped in order to register them. That system would track every dog back to it's breeder.

I agree with the problem of where does one persons rights end and anothers begin. Similar to the seat belt laws, one person believe it is their right to NOT wear a seat belt, even though the taxpayers have to support this person if they become brain damaged due to them NOT wearing one.

Not to bring in another issue, just using it as an example.

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911672)

If you ask the Dane brothers they are hobby breeders :eek:...who determines what is what and why should any breeder have a hobby that costs me $$$...If it is a hobby the breeder should pay for all expenses..if you get what I mean. It really is all about how many puppies/cats are born a year and the glut of animals we have. The Hunt Corporation would pay a very high amount ... as they should as brokers.

The difference to me is that a puppy has no control if he/she is born or not and is controlled by whomever owns him/her. They have no choices. Human's have choices when it comes to wearing a seatbelt or not but again it boils down to the high cost of insurance (medical care). When I was a kid no one wore a seatbelt, now I don't know anyone who doesn't...I am sure it has helped bring down the cost of brain damage in auto accidents....big time.

Dixies Mom

12-11-2009 10:11 AM

Breeders need to be held accountable

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911632)

I have dealt with 2 breeders that are fully aware of issues within their lines and they continue to breed and worse than that they continue to sell the dogs with open registrations. If they had to be held accountable and pay to keep that baby alive or free from pain maybe they would change their breeding practices.

Cerise

12-11-2009 10:12 AM

video quote: "all in the pursuit of cosmetic points, not anatomical points"

:confused::(:mad: So true! It's has been out of control for far too many years.

$$$$$ is the reason. Many breeders say that there is no money in breeding. Are they sure about that? When a dog is labeled BEST IN SHOW in the serious, high end UKC, and AKC shows, there IS money in
breeding those dogs. The money makers are the ones who control these organizations and breed clubs, and who fight to keep the rules they have made in tact. You witnessed them going to the hearings in this video and there are many, many, more like them representing other breeds in the UKC and AKC. Money controls the continuance of this problem.

This video is heartbreaking, and the UKC and breed club presidents were shameful in it.

We hear about the BYB and puppymill unethical money making mind set. To see in this video the high ranking people in the dog world giving top honors to sick and defective dogs, talking about these breeds by glorifying continuous inbreeding, dismissing genetic and health issues, and ignoring historical breeding failures, makes them just as SICKENING as the BYB and puppymill breeder. IMO it's worse because they are hypocrites.

I'll take a puppy from a Hobby Breeder whose concerned about health anyday!

JeanieK

12-11-2009 10:13 AM

Hobby Breeders

We are not show breeders--- we put health and temperament before looks, we don't care about the ribbons

We are not puppy mills----- we do not mass produce, money is not our objective

We are not back yard breeders---- we have researched our breed and breeding practices and continue to learn, the health and welfare of our dogs comes first. We research and choose our breeding stock carefully, And we take responsibility for our puppies.

This is not to start an argument, it is to clarify exactly who we are.

Many people believe that if one is not a show breeder, they are either a puppy miller or a byb. We are non of the those. We do it because we love it and we love our dogs.

Our dogs are more than a status symbol or a dollar sign. Just like with any other hobby, we do it because we love to do it. We get our gratification from just having the dogs and raising healthy puppies, and improving on what we do.

Cerise

12-11-2009 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911705)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

carmen in nj

12-11-2009 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911705)

I agree with that too.. my daughter is a jr.handler and we decided to show one of our dogs,so no ribbons or wins yet, hopefully one day that will come, she is just doing it for fun. is ok with me if she ever decides not to do it at some point, will I keep breeding my dogs, probably once a year like I been doing.. just for the love of my dogs and the benefit of the breed..:)
hugs,
Carmen in nj

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixies Mom (Post 2911702)

Well lets one day hope they will be held accountable.

chachi

12-11-2009 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livingdustmops (Post 2911691)

I agree there is a fine line between who is a hobby breeder and who is a byb. And I know Jeff Dane thinks hes a hobby breeder

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 2911705)

Hobby Breeders

We are not show breeders--- we put health and temperament before looks, we don't care about the ribbons

Except I have seen what some Hobby breeders are producing and some of the Yorkies I have seen are not even Yorkies...If you look at some other breeds they cannot receive ribbons until they pass temperament test.

We are not puppy mills----- we do not mass produce, money is not our objective

We are not back yard breeders---- we have researched our breed and breeding practices and continue to learn, the health and welfare of our dogs comes first. We research and choose our breeding stock carefully, And we take responsibility for our puppies.

Personally unless you have been with a lot of other breeders of the breed I think it would be very difficult to pick good breeding stock. I have seen this with the Biewers..pictures/pedigree's do not tell a total story. It helps when you see 30 Biewers together to start seeing thin chests, to long in the body..so on and so forth.

This is not to start an argument, it is to clarify exactly who we are.

Many people believe that if one is not a show breeder, they are either a puppy miller or a byb. We are non of the those. We do it because we love it and we love our dogs.

But you also add to the pet overpopulation because of your Hobby. Knitters don't do this, nor do people who like to paint or play games on the computer...why are people allowed this Hobby but no one pays for my Hobbies?

Our dogs are more than a status symbol or a dollar sign. Just like with any other hobby, we do it because we love to do it. We get our gratification from just having the dogs and raising healthy puppies, and improving on what we do.

I will bet you the majority of breeders in the US who do not show will tell you they are Hobby breeders...so why do so many million animals have to die because of this hobby.

Please don't think I am opposed to breeding...I am not but I think it is totally out of control and we need to stop the slaughter of all of these animals and figure out how we are going to be a humane society and also have wonderful healthy purebred dogs.

livingdustmops

12-11-2009 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chachi (Post 2911719)

I agree there is a fine line between who is a hobby breeder and who is a byb. And I know Jeff Dane thinks hes a hobby breeder

Yes it would be interesting to open his books. I will also say I am guessing most Hobby breeders do not claim any taxes on the $$$ they earn selling dogs or a lot of it is big lies.

Again if my hobby was knitting sweaters and I sold one for $500 I would have to declare income on it...how many Hobby breeders do you think do this?

chachi

12-11-2009 10:46 AM

If its a hobby theres too many people doing this hobby because too many animals are put to death each year. I know by saying that I am a little of a hypocrite because I got my yorkies from a breeder but now that I know better I will be going to a shelter or a rescue

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