Byb
 

For the life of me, I don't understand why people say BYB (backyard breeder) like it's a cuss word...I think most people that are BYB's are usually morally respectable people...For instance, I bought an English Mastiff, 11 years ago for $1800 from a big ol' show/breeder outfit in Kansas...I lived on a small cattle ranch, in Texas (we sold the calves), and my husband (at the time) traveled alot, so we got the mastiff for my protection and also planned to breed and sell her pups too...Both her parents came w/clear hip tests, and all the hoop-la that goes w/it, and she was guaranteed, after the 18 month x-rays...Unfortunately, after her x-rays, it was determined she had severe hip dysplasia...I contacted the breeder and she informed me I could send copies of the x-rays and return the dog for another pup...YEAH RIGHT! Ya' think I'm going to ship my beloved pet back to Kansas, on a plane, and have another pup flown back to me...I don't think so! We would never think of breeding her, under the circumstances, and we durn sure wouldn't send her back, like damaged goods...I loved her w/all my heart, and took care of her, until she couldn't get up anymore at 9 1/2 years old...It was the very reputable show/breeder that was willing to take our sweet Pebbles (yeah, I know, ironic name for a mastiff) back to God knows where, and give us a another pup, not a BYB...I got my Apple from a broker (fancypups.com) that strives very hard to get healthy pups from BYB's who love and care for the parents of the pups, and the pups are right there w/the owners in a loving home...They've been in business for many many years, and have known these people for years...Over the years, they have had very few complaints....Occasionally something will be wrong w/a pup, but, as you can see from my story, it can also go wrong w/high powered breeders of show dogs, etc... They absolutely do not buy from puppy mills, and detest this practice...As you can see, it doesn't take a reputable breeder that shows dogs to guarantee a perfect puppy...In life, sometimes things go wrong w/humans and w/dogs...I don't know why I felt the need to tell you all how I feel, I just did....It just seems like the BYB's are getting a real bad wrap...
BTW, I don't ever plan to breed Apple, she's just my little pookie doodle to love and spoil for as long as we're together....

I understand how you feel =/..

I have heard horrible things about fancypups. I would always after all I learned on here after over 4 years buy from a reputable show breeder only, see their home, know their lines, see the parents.... Buying from a broker ALWAYS is taking a big risk.

Here is one thread about fancypups:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...om-beware.html

I guess due to my not showing yorkies, even tho I try to improve.. health coming first... I am referred to as a BYB, well my dogs are my pets.. I would never in one million years sell my babies to a broker to sell for me.. I need to meet and know where my puppies are going...anne

I read that, and looks like there were two pups w/probs...I'm so sorry about that, but as I said, over 20 years, there's bound to be something wrong, at some point...Apple came to me as a very healthy, clean, and adorable pup......btw, Apple came from Texas, not Arkansas...In fact, I spoke w/Jimmie, about those posts, and she told me they don't even get pups from Arkansas... But, anyway, this wasn't about fancypups, it was about bybs...But thanks for your input 'though...

I don't necessarily feel that backyard breeders (hobby breeders) are all bad, I believe there are those out there that are only doing it to make a buck, and those who are doing it to create a good sound, healthy dog for the love of the animal, not the love of money. I do believe there are breeders that don't show their dogs who are reputable and worth talking to when looking for a pet. The problem is that the majority of these types of breeders are only in it for the money, they don't ensure their animals have great care and live in great conditions, and they don't care where they end up or even if they are spayed/neutered.

As far as brokers, well thats a whole different can of worms, any breeder worth their salt would be the one screening potential new homes for their litters and being picky at that. Might as well go to a pet store if your going to go to a broker

Well I guess you found out the hard way that not all show breeders are reputable and neither are all bybers. Bybers get a bad rap because they are only "in it" for the money. They are on the same level as a puppy mill but dont have the numbers of dogs a mill has. No health testing is ever done on the dogs and they are bred to death. Hobby breeders, on the other hand, do the research, the health testing, only have one or two litters per year and are "in it" for the love of the breed only. Some hobby breeders show and some do not but they do know the standard of the breed and breed to it.
As with any puppy, from a show breeder or byber, health problems crop up unexpectedly. What makes a breeder reputable is how they handle the situation. But I will bet on the show breeder to do the right thing before I would bet on a byber.

I don't think a breeder would consider a BYB if it has good lines and got their breeding dogs from reputable show breeders. This breeder should also know and study all the dogs in that dog's pedigree. They should be able to know the faults and the good qualities of most of the past dogs. That's why it's good to get a dog from a reputable breeder. A breeder should always be looking for show prospects in puppies when breeding. Even if the breeder doesn't like showing, they should be willing to get that pup shown with a professional handler. So if you want to breed, get dogs from reputable breeders, and buy the breeding rights. Note: if that breeder thinks that dog should be sold as a pet, there should be a good reason.
Most BYBs are linked to puppymills unfortunately. A BYB in my opinion, is just someone who wants to breed two pet quality dogs together because they either want money for the puppies or they think puppies are cute(which they are, but there should be a better reason for breeding). Most of these dogs are from the pet shop, because a reputable sells their pet qualities with limited registration, therefore those dogs are not supposed get bred. This insures that their lines are protected and it is keeping the breed pure from inherited problems. It's where they get their breeding stock that really matters to me. Most are from other BYBs or pet shops which originally they came from puppymills. BYBs and pet shops don't care if you breed the dogs, and then that person will breed, then the next person, and the cycle keeps continuing.
I don't know of a BYB that sells their dogs on limited registration but maybe some do.

Just my 2 cents. :)

This is an excellent comparison of reputable breeders and backyard breeders from wonderpuppy.net:

Lawrence County Humane Society Abuse and Adoption Center

One thing that does not make a lot of sense to me is how "breeding to standard" and "breeding for health" are always mentioned together. I don't see why breeding for aesthetic qualities has anything to do with health checks. Obviously there are show dogs that can win competitions, yet still have terrible health problems.

I am probably a little biased because of my little blondie Thor, but personally, I like seeing all the variety of yorkie looks here. I would love to see more "off standard" yorkies and fewer threads about sick pups.

The most important things for me would be a breeder that (1) performed requisite health checks on the parents, (2) did everything possible to ensure the pups go to good homes, and (3) sell most or all dogs on a spay/neuter contract. Show looks are neither here nor there.

Just my opinion, and I'm willing to be proved wrong.

And that is what I try to do..all my puppies have been spayed or neutered.. I do not sell any of my pups for breeding to date.. and have been blessed with such great parents...letting go of one of my puppies makes me feel I am losing my first born.. so there is a must on my doing interviews and know what people are like.it is nothing for me to keep a baby till they are 5 months old...I have spend over 2 grand this winter at the vets and have some health tests yet to do on a baby I plan to keep..the people I am responsible to are the new parents to enure baby is going to the best loving home. anne

Again your trying to prove that if one does not show.. then they are not good.. well I beg to differ with you on the fact I have over my 20 plus years gotten dogs from show breeders.. they are all I knew.. and what made me want to breed is to NOT do what they do and pretend they are good cause they are in the show world... more crap goes on that should not be done by these people that so can pick apart some one like me.. they have scammed people and lied and gotten away with it.. sold sick puppies or aggressive yorkies.. yet they can and they get away with it.. why because they are in the show world and many are some are so intimidating no one stands up to them.. so I wanted to prove I could breed for health and have integrity and do better for a new parent then many of those kinds can...I lived it.. saw it.. and saw how one would breed a stud to another dog and then say.. and if it comes out I will call the person a lier.. for this is not allowed in the show world.. so I have sat on both sides of this fence... the breeding world and the byb world as you it is called... anne

ANOTHER byb thread?
 

thread #3 about BYB today....

#1 http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...-breeders.html

#2 http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...72191-byb.html

Somebody on the maltese board asked that same question, read this, it'll answer your question: Spoiled Maltese - the largest maltese dog forum and website

My favorite quote is: Health and structure are closely related. A well-bred dog with excellent structure (according to our breed standard) should not have luxating patellae or hip problems. They should not have bowed front legs which can cause problems. They should not have large bug eyes which aggravate tear staining. They should not have an overly domed head such as would be common in a hydrocephalic dog. You can't breed without looking at structure and end up with healthy dogs.

I don't really know about the yorkie health here, but on that forum, 90% of the maltese that have health problems are not from reputable breeders. That's a fact.

I think that's an interesting point, and I can see that applying to yorkies for things like LP. On the other hand, coloring is part of the standard, which I don't think has anything to do with health (other than extreme cases, like albinos). In other breeds, it's been clear that breed standards have become exaggerated and actually hurt the health of the dogs. It's also fact that extremely unhealthy dogs have won best in show at major events. I think bulldogs are a classic example of this.

I'm not saying that showing is wrong, just that it is not related to dog health at all. You can have a dog that's healthy, show quality, one but not the other, both, or neither.

It really bothers me that with all the advances we've made, the average dog's life span has not increased at all over the past few decades. I know there are a lot of theories about this - I've seen vaccination and nutrition cited - but I really wish that breed standards were about health, not looks.

Woah, I did not know this about yorkie breeders.
Why don't you learn to show yorkies so you can prove them all wrong. You can prove to the world that not all show breeders are show crazy like that. Your yorkies can be your pets and they can be show dogs. They can sleep in your bed at night and be out showing and proving that they are to the breed standard. :)

WOW, i can't believe as a responsible pet owner, you would EVER recommend a broker like this. you are VERY lucky that you got a healthy puppy and i am glad that you don't have to go through the heartaches that others have to go through. but not everyone is as lucky as you are. you DID read the link to the other thread about fancypups.com right? how can you disregard/dismiss it? "But, anyway, this wasn't about fancypups, it was about bybs..." what kind of a cop out is that!? you brought up the point that you got your dog from a broker, so that response was completely ON TOPIC.

i took a look at fancypup.com and it looks like a VERY BAD IDEA! and i would not recommend anyone to get a dog from them. where are their puppy adoption contracts? i see clearly how ANYONE can PAY for a puppy. but i don't think everyone SHOULD own a dog. perhaps a trip to the nearby human society will prove the point that there are a lot of irresponsible pet owners out there.

i had no idea about all the different things to watch out for when i was first looking for a yorkie. but now as a responsible pet owner, i know what to recommend to people when they are looking for their own special dog. and i would NEVER tell them to go to a broker!

these BYB that work with the broker you mentioned obviously do not care what ends up happening to their pups as long as someone can PAY for the pups. :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

True, true. But wow, I didn't know that about the show dogs! All the show dogs I know were healthy.
I don't know much about color because maltese are supposed to be white but to me, if it wasn't about looks than it wouldn't technacally be considered a purebreed. Some say mixed breeds are even healthier than purebreds, but they aren't considered a breed. The definition of a purebred, is one that has a consistence look. The standard also states the breed's personality.

oh boy will I ever agree that "SOME" show people are NOT all that. I was a breeder of Golden Retrievers, but showing any breed is still showing. I consider myself a reputable breeder but because I am honest I will tell you what some, so called show people well/have done.
First off, there is no "perfect" pup. Second, just because you have 2 Champ parents and all clearances, does NOT mean the entire litter is a show litter. I have never seen a entire litter all show potential. The pool genes are in the millions. If my Golden had a litter of 8, I could look at a possible 3 as show, not all 8. Any breeder that claims EVERYONE one of their pups is show is full,well, ever mind.
Never go by preliminary hip x rays at 18 months. A good breeder doesn't even breed a dog until 2 years, after a FINAL OFA rating.
Now show breeders know exactly what a Judge looks for. And EVERY dog has a fault, because as stated, there is no perfect pup.
I have witnessed one breeder/show person who brought a different dog for a hip clearance but with another dog's name. Because that one dog failed for hips and she wanted to breed her because her confirmation was excellent. Oh OK so breed a female with bad hips to produce more bad hips. I've heard other breeders have done that with eye and heart clearances. Using different dogs. When you are in the show ring you hear and see many things.
Now a person who doesn't show, doesn't really know these things. Because they are not exposed to all that. In my honest opinion, you might find a better dog from someone who did get clearances on their dogs and has them right in their home. The show ring is quite political. And these kind of things going on in the show ring are NOT limited to just the Golden Retriever. Anyone here who shows and has shown for many years know that these things do go on. I had a Golden Retriever who had a dual championship and even showed in the Westminster. I spent thousand of dollars on her handler and to send her across the states. She had all her clearances with OFA Good. Found out she had low thyroid. Sure it's easily treatable but the likelihood of her pups possibly getting it is higher than if she didn't have it. So after thousands of dollars, I couldn't breed her. You can have two parents and have a pedigree back 5 generations with dogs all cleared. And still throw a dysplastic pup. I've had it. And so have many others. Nothing is full proof but the odds are better, IF all those dogs were really cleared and not false papers. Again, so very sad.Now many show people would have done that. Would have just bred. And that is the reason so many breed dogs are falling away from the standard.
Bottom line, you take a chance whether you buy from someone who doesn't show as well as those who show. Talk is sweet.
Education time is over, lol

Carol and Jemma

If I lived close enough to a yorkie breeder that shows.. I would certainly try to get involved.. I cannot run.. hard enough time walking..but I could not get a yorkie and then just have it many miles from me to spend the first years of his/her life with a handler or a show breeder...that would not satisfy me a whole lot..but if I were close and had a trust..would love it!! for trust is such a huge word in my vocabulary...it is one thing for a show breeder to produce show standard and beautiful yorkies.. but I do not trust that easily... be hurt and scammed too many times..

Thanks for your honesty.. personally I do not need that in my life.. it is a dog eat dog show world.. at one time it was an art years ago.. now it is more about the handlers and the people then the dog.. and your right.. breeders can go to places where they know what the judge wants and expects.. and avoid the judges they would not get places with... again all so political.. and if you can handle that and it is what you want..then I think it is wonderful.. anne

I guess it all depends on what you consider a BYB to be. It's not a clearly defined label and opinions of what a BYB is by definition obviously differ. I personally don't a BYB is defined as simply anyone breeding who does not show their dogs. There are people who breed that have very noble intentions and the best interest of the dogs and breed in general as their primary concern that do not show.

As far as buying from a broker, well, that's another story altogether...:rolleyes: I can't for the life of me justify it or understand why anyone would support that kind of business, nor can I understand why any breeder supposedly not out just to make a quick buck would turn over their dogs to one. (IMO, no respectable breeder ever would!)

I absolutely agree with you.. I cannot imagine to begin with and I do not have but a litter a year at this time.. could not imgine letting some one else sell my babies.. and not know who they went to and what kind of home they will have.. it discust me that any breeder would ever sell to a broker..I got burned badly.. and would never wish anyone ever getting involved with a broker.. but for me.. I did not know she was a broker.. had not one clue..it was one tough year I was harrassed and belittled and it just never seemed to stop.. I kept every single email or msn this girl sent to me.. with all of what she said.. tried so hard to keep me from getting my papers.. and was so upset that I did get them..I was not about to let her beat me down..
I cannot show.. but want to produce healthy babies first and formost.. and with my new male I am hoping for good things to happen for me..he comes from a good champion lines.. and he is a beautiful boy...anne

BYB and hobby breeders are very different. Most hobby breeders do all the research, take care of their dogs, have a small number of dogs, strive to better the breed and etc. A BYB is one who doesn't care about anything as long as someone pulls in the driveway with money.

i agree with this statement because I do show and some of the sickest or lamest dogs I have seen are either in the show ring, limping around or being bred in a show kennel. there is not a lot sadder than to see a magnificient show dog in the ring and when you look closely, it is favoring one leg or trying to hold it's weight up. or acting like it can barely walk due to bad hips.

I disagree with this statement. I have only been showing about two years but I knew all that you are talking about before I ever bred my first dog. Why? Because I educated myself before I even started. This is what all serious breeders ought to do.

:thumbup: perfect way of putting it Dee..thanks for the input..anne

You took that statement wrong. What I was saying was people who do not show are not exposed to all the false paper stuff and the things a show person can/will do. Of course, I agree with you 100 percent that anyone who intends to breed owes it to their dogs to learn everything first (research) and then weigh if you can be responsible enough to do all those things. And I'm glad you heard all I was talking about. I wanted to make sure people knew that this just wasn't Goldens but ALL breeds. Yes, it was a Art. As I had said, yup it's political. I don't show anymore nor breed Goldens. I have my little Shorkie Jemma who will never have a pup. I won't share anyway, she's all mine. lol

Carol