[quote=Bhikku;2342863]I completely agree that puppy mills are an abomination. I just think once people realized the OP was starting to get defensive and offended, they should have taken a different approach rather judge her so harshly...with a little more tact, she'd still be a member and she would be able to take advantage of the personal experiences other people have had regarding mill puppies on this site.
Actually, she can still come on here and read all the posts she wants to. I'm sure no one wanted her to leave but she did.

However, not all commercial breeders keep their dogs in horrible conditions, just like not all farms are involved in neglect or abuse. It is in the best interest of commercial businesses to keep their stock healthy and useful - it breeds repeat business and diminishes loss and returns. So basically, there is no reason with proper legislation that puppy mills should be the hellholes that they are.
OMG - I can't believe I'm reading this! When anything is soo mass produced - they can afford to loose some business - because they are making it up in numbers! :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

The more diseased and unsocialized the product, the less people will buy it, therefore less profit.
Are you kidding me??? They don't know this until they get the puppy home!!! Do you really think people go in and deliberately buy a sick unsocialized puppy? Come on!

Neglecting a commodity decreases its value. A stereotypical puppy mill is indicative of a badly run business.
That's exactly how they look at these dogs. :mad:
Commodity = $$$$$

Commercial breeders would not have the reputation they do if they were yoked with much more stringent regulations regarding the health of animals (mental/emotional/physical), public education (spay/neuter programs, bite prevention, etc...) and other factors which increase the quality of life for the animals and their prospective owners.
Good theory but very unrealistic. There are way too many PUPPYMILLS for the USDA inspectors to visit to enforce the regulations.

I completely agree that puppy mills are an abomination.
If you really feel this way... why are you defending them? What is this whole post about?

OMG Debbie - Dex came from Lincoln, NE? Aww, my daughter was born there. I lived there for 7 yrs. :(

Switching the pups, that is what made me click off of the post before I replied. It was because the other one was cuter or something like that.
What happens when the new puppy isn't cute anymore? It was just offensive to the posters who love their Yorkies like children.

Darcy (my rescue) looks more like Ms. Piggy than a Yorkie, shes got really big eyes and bad teeth, and she is the only Yorkie I have ever seen in my life who has frizzy hair, but she is the sweetest, best behaved baby I have ever had, and I would take her over 2 lb'er any day.

I'm sorry if you felt it was an all out attack. There are many threads where people don't read through the entire thread and post an opinion and many times things get repeated.

I did reply with just a simple statement that my Bentley is from a puppy mill in MO. I was absolutely shocked and horrified to find this out - I just didn't know what was out there. Now, I have no idea if the place he came from was a horrible one or if it was one in which it was just a large scale breeding facility that was clean, but nevertheless a mill.

I try not to push my views on others whatsoever, but the fact is most USDA breeders especially in the "puppy mill states" are large scale breeding facilities. The OP seemed to really be concerned about personality traits and attitude and that can be directly related back to the way in which a pup was raised so I think that the information given was pertinent to the question asked.

I am not in the camp that believes all puppy mill dogs are destined to be sickly and ill mannered - I have seen many come from loving homes that still have behavioral issues (much like my McKenzie) whereas my other dogs which were not from ideal situations are more well adjusted. The problem I have with mills is the ethics behind the transactions. I don't feel any live animal (farm, companion, ect) deserve to be treated as a product that is turned out to meet the demand of society.

It is hard in a thread with many people that are opinionated and each want to express their view points because it can *seem* like an attack. Many people that come to post don't realize that not everyone will share their ideas and get quickly offended. In any group there will be those that take it just a bit too far especially when it is with something so close to their heart, but I believe the majority of YT members simply are trying to inform.

Moot point....but personally I thought both puppies looked alike..the only difference was the age.

:thumbup::thumbup: I have two big Yorkies that aren't the prettiest Yorkies. They are nowhere near standard but I wouldn't trade them for the cutest, tiniest, perfect-ist (? :) ) Yorkies in the world. It is offensive and I think it's shallow and immature.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't see the issue with wanting a puppy that looks a specific way. We all have aesthetics that we like whether it comes to what we wear, who we date or marry, ect.

Many of us have been drawn to our dogs and yorkies based on their look. Without knowing the personality of the dog also makes the decision be based more on looks because what else do you really have to go by?

I tried to go back and edit my post because I decided what I said wasn't true. I don't think it's necessarily shallow or immature and I do agree with you to an extent. However, I still disagree with switching out a puppy for a "cuter" one. Puppies will change in their looks and you should look to the parents, not the puppies.

yeah :( it was Lambriar Kennels -- i traced his papers back there. I guess Lambriar Kennels provides the puppies to california pet stores :( I learned this as i wanted to know where he was from so i pulled his papers and did the search. Poor dex-- he is the sweetest boy though so loving and great with everyone.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. It was just her overall tone. She was saying the puppy had an attitude by the picture. They all have attitudes--they are terriers!

Also, Yorkie puppies look NOTHING like they will when they mature. You can't see their eventual color, etc.

I thought Baxter was the most adorable puppy ever, and I look at his pictures now--and oh my gosh-he was hideous. He looked like a miniature German Shepherd! He grew in to his ears, and now he is the largest AND the most beautiful of my pack.

I agree
The backyard breeder I purchased Maggie from named her Dumbo and registered her with that name. She was the runt with the BIGGEST ears, shy and scared. She grew into a completely different dog (beautiful and spunky). I got her at a discount because of her "faults". Despite her "genetic faults" I saw her "perfect sister" 6 years later and Maggie was definatly prettier. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I probably would have thought she was perfect no matter what she turned out to look like. All puppies look like rottweilers or german shepards and I dont think you can predict their outcome.
Baxter is beautiful!!!!

Disclaimer: I haven't read the entire thread, but this was such a good response I had to stop here.

First of all Wabbit, Kudos to you for starting a thread that was in your heart. After all....it's a message/opinion board, and would die without input.

I needed to say that I started posting on the internet when the internet first became the internet:D It's something that I truly love to do, and I have been discouraged on a many a website.

But the main thing I want to say is the WRITTEN WORD....I can't tell you how many times I have made a post trying to be helpful, glib, funny, sarcastic (mildly), informative, you name it, and it just comes out differently when it is simply TYPED WORDS, without me there face to face for you to read my original intentions.

Also having met my breeder, I feel that this is a really demanding and tiring business, she also shows dogs which takes it to another level of science. I say this to say that some "yorkie people" who have been doing this for years, know what they know what they know, and PERHAPS in imparting their knowledge/opinion, they come off a bit "strong."

I wish that this lady would come back. I missed the whole thread, and I see it had been erased.

I don't think the "experts" mean any "harm", I just think they are the kind of people who get on here , say what they have to say, and then have a million things to do....sometimes tact goes out the window. But Wabbit, any group of people at any given times need a gentle reminder, and this thread is just that.

Thank you Wabbit!!!!!!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:I have way to much stress in my life I thought YT was a good fun place to come to. Not just one person is gone but 2 (the guy with the choc. yorkies also) I think he would have had a lot of good info now we will never know:mad::mad::mad:

IDK, about the attorney that left. But, the guy with the chocolate yorkies is/was a commercial fur supplier:mad:. Once I knew that, I really didn't care what information he could have shared.

WOW am I missing alot - that sucks :(

wow i must have miss the thread...but i know the feeling...and i becoming more and more distant here...everything seems to be more of a debate than anything now a days...i hope that changes....

So then you can be against a puppymill and be FOR the pup, because the only way for us to save the largest amount of pups is to shut down puppymills by refusing to buy from them. You said it. :) You can do both.

Yes we can do both if that's the route chosen....But you have a lot of ppl here and in the country that say they are against puppymills, think they should not be allowed to do what they do, but then go into a pet store, and know it's wrong, but buy the pup because it is so and cute and say they need to be rescued as well. So until 'that' cycle stops, we can't do both :(

I have a really serious question, and I am NOT being combative/argumentative.....but are ALL pet stores around this great country of ours really crooked??? Do ALL pet stores buy from puppy mills , or out there somewhere is there a pet store that is kind of , well I guess exclusive maybe, that has a good reputation with good breeders and is committed to stocking quality pups and getting them to good homes????

I'm just asking because I know there are exceptions to every rule.... and it any of you know of such a place would you please post it. I just want to feel better I guess.

In my life time, before coming here , and knowing better, I have bought 3 pet store dogs. My Rockie RIP, Mercedes, a Lasha, and Mika, my grand-dog. By the time I got Maya, I was hip and did better. But I just want to know if such a pet store exists.

The thread wasn't deleted...

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...-decision.html

I don't know of any reputable breeder who would sell puppies to a pet store....these breeders want to know where their puppies are going and don't allow unlimited registration to just any one.

I won't be run out, but I am choosing to leave....Some have been extremely helpful but If all they do is judge I got better things to do and Chewie and I can figure it out on our own.....Peace to all who were helpful may your holidays be filled with joy...

You're right.....I forgot about that aspect of it. Still hard to believe that it is not out there somewhere...What if this mythical store screened customers VERY carefully as well, and the breeder and the store both had an agreement on that??? Just fantasizing I guess. I want to believe in the good in commerce in the US exist somewhere in this area.

I think the problem is the supply aspect. Pet stores sell many breeds....and always need more puppies.

I am not sure that it is out there....

Try to imagine yourself as a breeder. Try to imagine going thru the stresses of delivery, tube feeding, sleeping very little b/c the 'runt' needs to be bottle feed every 2 hrs in order to survive, try to imagine caring for the Mom that had to have an emergency C-Section, and the list goes on....I can't imagine going thru all of that and then turning around and handing the pups over to a Pet Store to sell them according to their standards and rules....Just doesn't make sense to me that responsible, caring breeders would do that EVER :(

I know this wasn't asked of me, but I figured I could throw my personal opinion into the "pot" so to speak :p.

I don't know of any pet store that doesn't purchase from a large scale commercial breeder or mill. I believe that pet shops must purchase from a USDA breeder and those are usually larger operations.

As a side note not related to your question --

What I think is so challenging is that even with small breeders you never really know if they are just as bad as a mill. Even though a breeder may not be a large operation, the care of the animal may not always be the best and thought may not be given to the pairings of the dogs there. I think many also fall into the trap that because a breeder is small, they are "good" breeders which is unfortunately untrue.

What the entire situation comes down to (for me) is that it's the ethics behind the entire situation. I think that the way animals both farm and companion are treated is a direct reflection of greed and product demand. And what is worse is you will *never* hear a pet store being up front and honest about where these pups come from.

I'm going off on a tangent here, lol. But as much as I think it's important to educate others, I think there's a fine line to walk when trying to discuss the issues and trying to persuade someone not to buy from a pet shop. In the end pushing personal beliefs on others will never accomplish the true goal which is really education.

I'm sure all of us have gotten discouraged with some of the posts on Yorkietalk and felt like leaving, but if you really wish to avoid drama, you shouldn't post that you are leaving. Just go away for a time, until you can put things in proper prospective.

If you read post 14 of the F&Q http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...delines.htmlit states:

Quote:

I completely agree that puppy mills are an abomination. If you really feel this way... why are you defending them? What is this whole post about?

It's about your "enemy" not being demonized to the point that you have lost all perspective, become a zealot and lose the ability to coerce people to your side. Saying "puppy mills shouldn't exist" is like saying "factory farms shouldn't exist." We are a long way off from having enough people with the worldview that these things are wrong to do any significant damage to them.

Most people (I'd even venture a lot of people here) have had a Big Mac knowing how terrible factory farm conditions are, or maybe bought a puppy from a "disreputable" source because it was an impulse buy or maybe better on their budget. But just because they have been enlightened that their past actions were bad does not give them the right to force others into that same experience.

Awareness that other sentient beings than humans have fears and desires and emotional lives is something that does not come easily to people, because it inherently means that they must admit to ignorance or cruelty or both. The harder you try to force someone into a perspective shift like that, the harder they're going to resist.

That's why maintaining the fine line between education and emotional blackmail is very important. If you emotionally blackmail someone with your perspective, they won't trust you. And as an extension of that, they will not trust or believe in your opinion.

Puppy millers aren't Nazis, they're just people who have a very different perspective on animal rights/ethics than others do. There are lots and lots of people like this out there who don't treat animals as family or friends or even fellow sentient beings - rural families who don't fence their yards because if their dog gets run over, it's "just a dog" and they go to the flea market to get a new one; people who go around wearing fur who have no problem with how that fur was produced, people who leave their dogs behind when they get evicted, even if that dog has been in their family for several years. The Chinese view animals much differently than Westerners do. Dogs are pets, and food, and fur, all in the same package.

Would you eat your dog? How about if you were starving? At what point does the Western view of the dog shift back into objection? What is the mindshift between "companion" and "commodity"?

As far as puppy millers go, you can't make blanket judgements about a group of individuals, because there is no way that every person in that group fits your exaggerated version of who they are. When you do you immediately devalue your opinion in the eyes of people you are trying to get to agree with you, because you obviously have a bias.

THAT is the point.

I personally think she came in with an IM BETTER THAN YOU ATTITUDE because she is a LAWYER and she felt intimidated by YT members who where just giving their opinions and knew MUCH more than her....I feel for those two pups that wont have a home and will probably be traveling on a plane to who knows where....or get sold to a petstore. She brought those two pups in all of our lives...By posting. Im mad at her for not being mature, Who cares about THE PERFECT YORKIE but onlly to discarding these pups like they are nothing. HEAR HEAR to all the members that had the nerve to post their feelings and information to this Lawyer. YOU ARE TRUE ANIMAL LOVERS...Lissette

Because those of us who feel the situation was mishandled eat kittens for breakfast. :rolleyes: