Please don't go crazy!
 

But I have a heated debate question. I would really like everyone to stay civil and on topic. Just wondering about some things to educate some people I know. They have come up with very legitamite concerns in an ethics class I am taking-would like some viewpoints and please keep it honest.
1. What makes a rescue a rescue? When does it become okay for a rescue organization to discriminate the breeds they rescue? What about all of the other strays or homeless animals that need homes?
2. What is the difference in a rescue organization and a broker? (Calm down). Is it not true that rescues often go to auctions and buy dogs for cheap and then turn around and sell for profit, not much, but still profit.
They will often take dogs from breeders as well, which then furthers the cycle of more breeding.
3. Would a "true" rescue be in the business to shut down auctions and puppymills instead of "rescuing" these animals and selling them (I am having a hard time differentiating this and being a broker). I am talking about screaming and YELLING, petitioning lawmakers, raising h#$%!

There are legitimate expenses that go into running a rescue-spay/neuter costs, medical care, vaccinations, food/shelter, GAS money. But where does a rescue have the right to charge 300 for a dog when there are dogs in shelters that need loving homes as well for 50-60$.

All I am asking for is honest viewpoints and some justification. I appreciate honesty and civility. Just raising questions and would like to see some answers with knowledge base that can be taken to class and discussed. If this is not the place, just let me know. I don't want anyone upset.

I am going to step aside and hopefully some of the gals that work directly with rescue groups will help answer these questions...however, I must say, you may have just opened up a can of worms...I hope you get your questions answered without the drama that sometimes is associated with these kinds of debates....good luck!

Rescues don't make a profit, that's the difference. However one of the newest scams are puppy mills that are claiming to be rescues and selling their worn out breeders for top dollar, many people find it difficult to tell a legitimate rescue from one of the scam artist rescues, so it's important to check this out. Three hundred is an extremely fair price to pay for a rescue since spaying and neutering can cost this much, and rescues usually have this procedure done. Many have had much more costly operations, and procedures done including extensive dental.

I don't know why you bring up the point of discrimination; all rescues have to work within some perimeters. I would be leery of a "rescue" that goes to auctions, unless their purpose was to keep these dogs out of back-yard breeder, and puppy millers hands, and in that case, they would always be neutered and spayed, again taking away that "profit." Legitimate rescues won't let just anybody adopt a pet; they don't ever want to take the chance on placing a pet in an unsuitable home, so they really go overboard. A broker pretends he's looking for a good home, but isn't likely to ever turn anyone away.

I've seen what happens to the dogs at auctions that don't sell. And, more often they are breeds you would never believe didn't sell, brussels griffons, Italian greyhounds, chihuahuas, poodles, etc. It's sad, but it's not possible to save them all.

Thank you for the honest responses. I appreciate the civility as well. I am understanding that a broker sells without regard if the animal is altered or not and that it is just for profit.
I do understand that not all can be saved. But it is a very harsh reality. Sometimes it comes across my mind that who are we to choose this one but not that one base just on breed alone. I can see the perimeters being set for the breed that the rescue is most knowledgable about. That does make sense.
But don't most rescues get their spay/neuters done at a cheaper cost?
I am not saying that just anyone should be blessed with these animals, but should it not simply be made where they can find homes a little easier. As long as the family can show they can support a dog/cat and have a vet that will always work with them.
When I say perpetuate the breeding cycle-the breeders dump off their used up older animals and that leaves room for more to come. There is no punishment or anything. It is certainly not the rescues fault, but what is it doing to the population of animals?
They will continue to breed (and yes more than likely they would kill the older unusable animals, but also this would run them the chance of getting caught and in trouble of some sort.)
Just some thoughts as I continue to work through this. I do appreciate the insight immensely.

PS, no trolls here. Just looking for answers......;)

I'm not really in a position to answer most of your questions, but I do know that most rescues give their dogs whatever medicine and surgery they need. This may be why the price is higher. A shelter probably just gives the dog "as is" even if they needed medical attention.

This is such an odd thread. What are you trying to really get at here?

And if you've nothing to hide, then why are you changing your actual location? :rolleyes:

Even better questions. ;)

I feel like this is an interesting topic. I like seeing both sides of things. My husband is a huge animal rights advocate and feels like rescues that are breed dominant fill the pound with more and more unwanted babies. I agree that the rescue is not brokering for the fact that they are assuring good homes for the babies they foster.

BUT-what I am not sure on-and my dh asks me frequently-is when you take these dogs from breeders-even if you spay/neuter them-it is just making a spot for the next dog to slid into-right?? I think it is nice they are getting great homes. But how do you make the breeder, mill, byb, auctioneer, or broker responsible for their actions if you allow this behavior??

PA just passed laws-alot of hard work was put into getting that done. It had to start somewhere.

I think that if a rescue didn't take them that dog would be put down or cast aside, left to fend for itself or some other terrible life. Even if the rescue did not take that dog, the "breeder" would still make a spot for the next dog. I think the idea of a rescue is really about compassion for the life of an animal. We (and when I say we, I mean humans) brought them into this world and we owe them some type of duty for their fate.

Dogs do not have RIGHTS of their own, they are not humans but they are owed PROTECTIONS.

I am actually thinking of taking an Animal Law course next semester because I am interested in this dichotomy.

I agree with you on the compassion and owing them the right of protection. But who ends the cycle? The buyer, the seller? They need each other to exist. Correct? :confused:
I am a nurse-so Animal Law would be quite foreign to me. But you could always be a key player in such a great cause. I see you are from PA-congrats on the passage of the law there. :thumbup:

The reason for choosing to rescue specific breeds, is probably just a preference. One group cannot save them all.

The reason for buying at auction then reeselling is most likely to keep the dogs out of the hands of unscrupulous breeders. I don't know of any rescue groups that sell un altered dogs. But f they can maike a small profiot on those dogs it would help to offset the costs of the other dogs.

No! rescue groups are not brokers. Brokers do not spay/neuter the dogs, and they do not take in dogs that need medical care. If they bought them in a lot, as auctions sell them, they would most likely destroy any unsound dogs.

Rescue groups do not make a profit, Some of the animals might bring in a small profit, but overall, they do not make a profit.

I think it all depends on the cycle you purport to end. The overpopulation of animals? The proliferation of puppymills and greeders who keep the dogs in deplorable conditions? Poor breeding practices that lead to prolific genetic defects? or is it the despicable treatment that dog may endure within its "home"?

Personally, I think that the sale of dogs should be better regulated. The federal government could arguably do so under the commerce clause of the constitution if states lack appropriate controls.

Of course all of the above would be nice. But the coexistence of good and bad are very disturbing. One feeds the other.
It is the state to blame for lack of better regulations and disciplinary actions against those that continue the cycle by unscrupulous breeding and milling.
It is a sad world when animals are treated like objects and used for nothing but profit.
Very sad.

Agree. It made me so upset when I heard that puppymill owner was going to receive 60 or so healthy dogs back after they were placed in rescues where they received much need care.

I don't think many rescues buy dogs at auctions or from breeders. A few do and this seems to be a matter of controversy among rescue people. Most rescues from what I understand get their dogs for free from private homes/breeders or they pull dogs from shelters. Say they may pay $100 dollars for a dog that is up to date on vaccinations and already spayed/neutered, so all it need is a basic exam ($60). Then they adopt that dog out for $400. Most of the dogs they get (especially from the mills) require dentals, with lots of extractions, professional grooming, to remove matted coats, spay/neuter, treatment for various infections, heartworm treatments, other worming treatments, and the list goes on. Then there are those dogs with liver shunts/heart murmers/luxating patellas that require surgery that costs thousands of dollars. On the rare occasion they do turn a profit on a single dog, that money goes towards a dog that they lost hundreds, if not thousands, on.

As for justifying just rescuing a single breed, I don't see it as discrimination at all. Breed rescues know more about their breed's personality and health concerns. The are able to find the best homes for their breed, too. Rescues usually consist of a network of foster homes. They are able to keep dogs longer, housebreak and train them and evaluate them better. In addition to breed rescue, there are rescues that specialized in hard to place dogs, senior dogs, special needs dogs, etc. Many breed rescues also rescue mixes of their breed. Many also make exceptions in certain cases. If a yorkie grew up with a schnauzer and the dogs needed to be placed together, a yorkie rescue would probably take both. I have seen toy dog rescues, take in large dogs. It helps if you look at rescue in general as one big machine. Yorkie rescue may take in just Yorkies, but if they didn't, where would the Yorkies end up? Probably in the shelter taking up a kennel that would otherwise go to a large mutt. By pulling a purebred from a shelter, rescues are providing more time and room for mixes and hard to place dogs.

It works the same way with adoption. No matter where you adopt from, you create a slot for another dog that may have been PTS. You can save a dog directly from a high kill shelter or you can go to a no kill shelter/rescue. Either way you are creating a space for another dog. Ultimately increasing the chances of it getting adopted.

The OP appears to have disappeared. If they were looking for a "heated" debate, they were no doubt terribly disappointed.

Maybe she got what she needed for that "ethic class" :rolleyes: And, when it comes to ethics (if she was trying to hide) maybe she needs to study a bit more?;)

thank you for this very informative post. I enjoyed reading it and I learned alot. :) Have a great day everyone.

please don't tear me a new one
 

It seems to me that a rescue group would be "buying" into the same system they are trying to eliminate by buying from an auction....(hope I said that right). I see that yes, you are taking that dog out of that puppymill...but only to make room for the others for the next auction? What I mean is,

I see a rescue organization as one that will go and rescue a dog from harm and fight to eliminate puppymills and educate. As we all know, there are profit and non-profit organizations. A rescue would fall under non profit, therefore, no taxes and I will guess that the services of the vets and such would most likely be at cost. The rescues would have a "contract" with a participating vet whom is also helping the rescue by keeping the costs at minimum. In other words...a rescue wouldn't pay what I do for their services.

I guess I get confused as well as to why the rescue groups charge upwards of $400-$500 for a dog that the pound will adopt out for $60-$100. I do agree we need rescue groups but I think it can become similar to the issues we have with breeders...everyone wants to get a piece of the action, or just because they think their dog is cute...then we should breed it. Some are out for the greenery....and even in rescues...there is (I hate to say it) money to be made.

I truly think it comes down to education. Why aren't these groups exposing the auctions and more of the puppymills? Hell, I can walk into an auction and buy a $10 yorkie myself, get the necessary meds and resell, but to me I would be doing these dogs more justice by bringing the media with me and exposing and shutting down these operations. A happy rescue would be one without dogs...that should be the main goal~of any and all rescue groups. The more exposure you bring to these people, the more outraged our society will become on this practice and the more pressure the legislature will be to pass more laws...right?

I have posted several times on this forum about the auctions here. As far as bringing "the media" with me, an area newspaper has already done an extensive report on them, so they have been exposed here. They do have big signs on all of the doors forbidding cell phones, cameras, etc. If you only knew the mindset of these people that run the auctions......dogs are like livestock to them, they are NOT like our pets. With that attitude and the fact that the auctions are completely legal, change will be difficult.

I really don't know how many true rescues actually make any money. The ones who take the time to socialize, care, and treat the dogs they rescue likely don't. Not only does it cost for the vet fees but there is also cost in toys, blankets, beds and food for the dogs and the time it takes to get a dog ready for adoption, if they can be adopted at all. True, there are some dogs that don't need as much money put into them but their fee goes towards the expenses of another dog. The rescues out to make money, in my opinion, aren't really rescues since they are not doing much for the dog and probably doesn't care much for the welfare of that dog once there is money in hand.

I do agree that education is key and the media is very powerful in making people aware of the situation and hopefully urging the public to take issue with their representatives.

Education is all well and fine but does take time, and often isn't effective. How many years have scientists been screaming about global warming and our government has yet to take it seriously? Or smoking, how long have we been educated enough to know it's not good and still people start smoking every day of the year.
I appreciate your responses. I know that you do care and have passion for what you are trying to accomplish. I do want to encourage you to not give up on the educational process...it is hard, it is long, however, in the end it IS effective.

So, even as we educate, dogs are being killed, abused, bought by breeders, resold at flea markets and for medical research. Do we just stop buying (saving) them until everyone is educated? Absolutely not! I am not even hinting that that would be what we should do. I am simply saying, Educate, Educate, Educate! It is worth every second of your time. If you want to be successful at saving these animals. This is my opinion on how to get it done.
I have posted several times on this forum about the auctions here. As far as bringing "the media" with me, an area newspaper has already done an extensive report on them, so they have been exposed here. And you continue to bring them out..along with the t.v. media, Peta, whoever you can get to help you get them fully exposed They do have big signs on all of the doors forbidding cell phones, cameras, etc. If you only knew the mindset of these people that run the auctions......dogs are like livestock to them, they are NOT like our pets. The mindset would have to be this way. No human being with a heart for animals would do this.With that attitude and the fact that the auctions are completely legal, change will be difficult. Difficult, but Not Impossible!

It takes one person to set in motion ~ change! One person! Look back in history at the woman who defied society and sat at the front of the bus....the woman who decided that it wasn't right to have our children pray in school...or have "In GOD we trust".....it may seem a difficult feat, but it can be done!

Dang ~ I should be a preacher or something!
__________________

I agree that education is the right course. The millers in particular have the goverment in their pocket. Anyone here from a rural area can tell you how much the politicians pander to farmers, ranchers, etc. Puppymills fall under the jurisdiction of the USDA, so the millers have the same protection that most farmers do. There have been attemps at passing National anti puppymill legislation, but the bills get twisted at perverted by Animal Rights groups that want to eliminate all breeding and lobbyists for the puppymills, petstores and brokers. In the end most laws would have a negative effect on reputable breeders more than anyone else. The disreputable breeders would just go further underground. Many already have dogs registered and liscenced under various relatives names and aliases. Dog fighting is illegal everywhere in this country, yet it goes on just the same. Pit bulls have been banned in numerous location around the world, but I promise you there are still pitbulls in those areas. People who don't care about anti-cruelty laws, won't pay anymore attention to breeding laws. The best way to stop puppymills is to stop buying at petstores and from online brokers. How many people on this very forum have said something along the lines of "if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have purchased from that petstore/website." So yes, I do think education works.

This thread has gotten interesting and I've been doing some research today. I've actually learned that there are many rescues out there who are now getting the MAJORITY of their dogs at auction, for less than $30, have them spay/neutered for $30 and are then selling them for $200-400. This does not "feel" like a rescue to me. Call me naive, but it doesn't - not when the majority of their dogs are coming from auction. Sure, you are saving that dog from being bought by a bad breeder -- but I also see this action as supporting Puppy Mills. It's in the same vein as saying "I'm going to buy a yorkie from a Pet Store to save that yorkie" -- when in essence, you're supporting Millers by buying from there. How is that different from auction, can you educate me?

I guess I'm now curious, taking your rescue for example - what percentage of your rescues come from auction vs. actual "rescues" or surrenders?

Like I said, maybe I'm naive -- but I've learned today that there is growing controversy out there regarding Rescue Organizations who are getting the majority of their dogs at auction. I guess I find this really disappointing as I don't *think* I'd personally want to support a rescue who supported dog auctions to such an extent.

I personally have had 8 yorkies turned into the city shelter and one from a kill shelter in a nearby town. I work with the local PAL's group and the city shelter, when they have yorkies and yorkie mixes they will call me or just drop by.

I've also attended auctions that are held here, with other rescues. I do not keep our rescues records so can't give you an exact number of dogs from there. Although, I do know we've had many, many more rescued from kill shelters, owner surrenders, and breeder surrenders than from auctions. I do know what happens to these dogs if they are not purchased by rescues. And, maybe it's best to let that happen :confused: I do not look at buying a 7 year old toothless yorkie girl from the auction the same as buying a puppy from a pet store.

I know of no dog we've taken in and spent less than $100 on with vet bills, usually it's considerably more than the prices you've mentioned. So, if we charge $175 for a yorkie we are really making no profit. Maybe other rescues are making a profit :confused:

I do understand the controversy because as I've mentioned I have struggled with the decision. It's hard to walk away though when I know what happens at the end of the auction day:(

i have to agree with you. I have seen the prices on OK rescue compared to prices on some other rescues and yours are considerably low. I know for a fact Koda HAD to have cost your rescue more than 175. He was neutered, UTD on shots, had a wellness exam and been fed. Im sure you do have a vet that does it considerably cheaper than mine but by my calculation if my vet were to do all that its no less than 300 dollars. We rescued Koda for 175 $ AND they drove him half way across the country to get him to me. He came to us with kennel, harness, programmed microchip, bag of food, blanket, bellyband, and leash. No way you made money on him. Impossible.

I am sure there are good and bad in everything in life and yes there may be a bad rescue out there somewhere. I am going to stay in my niave world and assume they are ALL good and continue to support and be happy. If the bad ones are out there then all I can say to them is Karma is a B***H and they will get theirs!! And to the good ones I know for a fact are good, (OK, YorkieRescueMe, etc.,) YOUR ANGELS!!!!! This is a weird post by the O.P. IMO, kinda bothers me. Ill leave you all with this......



After reading that it doesnt matter to me where they came from or how they got there, as long as they do.

You did a very good job of addressing thnose issues. I am not affiliatedwith any resuce group, but that is the way i assumed it worked.

And I agree, if you did not rescue these dogs at the auctions, they could fall into the worng hands or be destroyed.