Check on a breeder - Page 2 - YorkieTalk.com Forums

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 08:14 AM

Make sure you can speak with the breeder's vet before you put down a deposit. Ask the vet or his or her staff about the honesty of the breeder, how they care for their dogs, and how they raise their puppies. You can sometime "read between the lines" of what they won't say if they are being too careful in talking to you. If the breeder doesn't want to give you the vet's name, then stay away from that breeder. Any breeder should have a good relationship with their vet and neither the breeder nor the vet should mind a call from a new possible puppy family.

There is some misrepresentation here that all USDA breeders sell to pet stores. I am USDA and I don't sell to anyone except individuals that I actually speak with. It is also wrong that all breeders have to be USDA registered to sell to a Pet store. In fact - my understanding - and I have been in USDA educational meetings is that a person selling to a "broker" (not a pet store") has to be USDA registered only if they have more then 3 breeding females - if they are a Hobby breeder with under 3 breeding females they can sell to the broker without being USDA licensed. And to sell straight to a Pet Store, my understanding is that you don't have to be USDA registered. This is straight from a USDA rep that I heard this information. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there by "non breeders" concerning the good and bad of the USDA. I would also tell people that they DO want to buy from a USDA breeder. Where I am located the USDA makes surprise visits at least once a year - if a person is not a licensed breeder, they have NO one to check on them and keep them in line with the care of their dogs. I am checked by USDA, STATE, AND AKC once a year. Our USDA and state inspectors are very strict and I am sure that many "small hobby breeders" would not pass the strict inspections that we have to go through. I do not have to be USDA - but I think it is good for my puppy families that I am. That is just an extra level of security that I am doing a good job.

BamaFan121s · 08-27-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButterflyKisses

There is a lot of misunderstanding out there by "non breeders" concerning the good and bad of the USDA. I would also tell people that they DO want to buy from a USDA breeder. Where I am located the USDA makes surprise visits at least once a year - if a person is not a licensed breeder, they have NO one to check on them and keep them in line with the care of their dogs.

I think you would be surprised at the information many "non-breeders" have taken the time to educate themselves on.

And yes, non-licensed breeders would and DO have people to "keep them in line." Various registries conduct inspections of breeders' facilities rather frequently, with AKC being the most stringent. (AKC, who does not support the efforts of the USDA whereas dogs are concerned, BTW.) I daresay that canine registries would also focus more on issues related to dogs and the specifics of the dogs' needs as they vary breed to breed rather than follow a generic set of livestock guidelines.

Now that is not to say that YOU are a bad breeder, please don't mistake my opinion for that. But fact of the matter is, generally speaking, a USDA breeder throws up a caution regarding dog breeders and for good reason--it's not just something the "non-breeders" of this forum made up and declared. Of course there are always exceptions.

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 09:01 AM

I just wanted other's to understand that being a USDA breeder doesn't equal being a bad breeder - you have to look at many other things as there are good and bad Hobby breeders, show breeders, and USDA breeders. Any breeder needs to be researched before anyone buys a puppy. I think the most important thing is that you are able to completely trust and feel comfortable about the person you are buying from and don't just buy without asking questions and I think it is very wise to talk to the breeder's vet. References are also good - but a scam artist or a bad breeder can even pull up some good references. But most vet's will be honest when it comes to giving their recommendation for a breeder.

BamaFan121s · 08-27-2008, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ButterflyKisses

Any breeder needs to be researched before anyone buys a puppy. I think the most important thing is that you are able to completely trust and feel comfortable about the person you are buying from and don't just buy without asking questions and I think it is very wise to talk to the breeder's vet.

I completely agree--that is and always has been my belief as well.

Welcome to YT, BTW.

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 09:11 AM

I am in AKC's "top 25" for what ever that is worth. and AKC is great at their inspections, but they are not even 1/4 as strict as USDA who is at least twice as strict as just being state licensed. - also AKC doesn't tend to "visit" the Hobby breeders since they have so few AKC registered puppies in a year.

One of the very positive things about USDA is that they give very good breeder classes once a year. Between the USDA classes, my breeders club "2 day seminars" and a few other "2 day seminars" that are given by groups that many non USDA don't know of, I go to approx. 30 to 40 hours of classes a year on how to breed for better dogs and how to have healthier dogs. Sorry to say not all USDA breeders go to these classes - but the 2 USDA classes that are offered this summer are totally packed out and if a breeder hasn't registered yet, they can't even go to them. These are excellent classes and there are hundreds or USDA breeders that go to these classes - they are not required by USDA - so there are some USDA breeders that do care. Sometimes when I read post that link all USDA breeders as being "bad news" I do have to think that they are not completely educated on the USDA who is just trying to work to keep breeders that are doing a good job and they do try to put breeders out of business who are not taking care of their animals.

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 09:20 AM

I love Yorkies and can never imagine myself without one - but as a breeder also, I am just wanting to add some information in a "non emotional" way where ever I can help. I hear from people all the time that talk to breeders that are not good breeders (some USDA and many not USDA) - so it I can give any helps at all to anyone as they are getting ready to get a puppy or have any inquiries after they get a puppy - I would love to be of help.

BamaFan121s · 08-27-2008, 09:23 AM

I think the issue is more "what" they are being stringent about. I think alot of the concern is that guidelines that they are enforcing are not breed or even dog specific or what is thought of as ideal in relation to breeding dogs.

chachi · 08-27-2008, 09:28 AM

Dont you have to keep your dogs in an outside kennel to be USDA? I know most want to buy from someone where the dogs are inside with the breeder

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 09:32 AM

That is often true! My USDA inspector is extremely picking about the total care of the dogs, puppies and their surroundings. If she can find anything wrong - she will. Sometimes I think they go too far - but I know that they are making sure that the dogs and puppies are clean, groomed, have safe and clean surroundings, and are well taken care of - at least my inspector is doing that - Of course, I can't speak for all USDA inspectors. I know that the inspectors are not all equal in how they inspect which can be frustrating to many good USDA breeders.

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 09:47 AM

I do have special areas for my dogs. I have seen breeders who say that they have several different breeds - a number of each breed - and they are all in the house. I hope not - if they are - then how are the male dogs being kept from the females - unless they are being kept in crates in the house. My dogs have temperature controlled indoor areas where they have their food, water, and bedding, then they have large yard areas where they can run and play.

New babies have to be kept at certain temperatures so I have a special whelping room for my moms when they are due with the babies. My mom dogs are all "house broke". I am a "stay at home" doggy mom - I go out and play with the dogs and let the mom's out of the whelping room where my they are with their new babies several times a day - they are not let out in a "run", they just run around and play in the yard - I have 25 acres but they play between the house and the whelping room - then they come back to the whelping room and bark at the door to come back in. Any of my dogs that get out in the yard and just run around and play, staying in the area where they know as their home and they want to get back into their area after they have played for a while - just like a house pet will run around and play outside then want to get back in the house. They just have a different house. I have not seen any puppies that have been raised "in the home" any friendlier or who love being with people any more then my puppies do. I spend a lot of time with my puppies - there is no guarantee that a puppy raised in the house will have more time spent with it just because it is raised in the house. My sister bought a puppy that was "home raised" and it was the worst puppy she ever had - the puppies really didn't have much attention even though they were "home raised". My puppies have a "kindergarten kennel" they go into when they are 6 weeks old so that they learn how to go potty outside using the doggy door. This helps with the house breaking. Again, we spend a lot of time playing the the puppies and bringing them in the house - playing with them out in the yard - trying to get them used to all kinds of environments before they go to their new homes. I did a lot of checking around before I started raising my first dogs as I wanted to make sure I could do the best possible for my dogs while raising puppies.

ButterflyKisses · 08-27-2008, 10:20 AM

I hope that I've only said helpful things - I just wanted to mainly give the tip about talking to the breeder's vet as a way to help check out the breeder.

I've got my daughter, son-in-law, and 4 grandkids coming in here is a few weeks after being in Africa for a year and a half, so I am doing some "top to bottom" cleaning of the house. The grandkids are just 8, 3, 2, and 1 - the 1 year old being my first grand daughter of my 6 grandkids and also one I have not had been able to see except on the web cam and pictures being e-mailed to me since she was born in Africa. My other 5 grandkids, I was able to be at the hospital for when they were born. So have got lots and lots to do to get ready for them. Talk to you later!

BamaFan121s · 08-27-2008, 10:21 AM

I think that dogs having to be housed in a separate facility is DEFINATELY a concern. I know it certainly would be to me. And a breeder keeping their dogs inhome does not automatically equate to multiple breeds of intact males and females running loose together unsupervised.

Again, this is a perfect example of how it's the actual guidelines being enforced that are issues for people.

Being a highly acclaimed USDA breeder and conforming to their guidelines doesn't mean squat to people if the very regulations that you are having to meet are the problem.

jennylee333 · 08-27-2008, 10:37 AM

I am finding this to be a very interesting thread...There have been good points made by both sides. I do know of some breeders that are horrible...and then there are a couple that seem to have a real nice facilty...NOT that I could put my dogs in a building, but their dogs seem to be happy and well taken care of. And very socialized.

I really would like to see how this plays out and if any other breeders come forward for this debate.

BamaFan121s · 08-27-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jennylee333

debate.

Oh no...please don't say that word and give anyone any ideas.

(just kidding)

jennylee333 · 08-27-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

Oh no...please don't say that word and give anyone any ideas.

(just kidding)

OKAY....discussion....LOL

I do know what you mean, though....

08-27-2008, 08:14 AM	#16
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	USDA breeder is NOT always a bad thing Make sure you can speak with the breeder's vet before you put down a deposit. Ask the vet or his or her staff about the honesty of the breeder, how they care for their dogs, and how they raise their puppies. You can sometime "read between the lines" of what they won't say if they are being too careful in talking to you. If the breeder doesn't want to give you the vet's name, then stay away from that breeder. Any breeder should have a good relationship with their vet and neither the breeder nor the vet should mind a call from a new possible puppy family. There is some misrepresentation here that all USDA breeders sell to pet stores. I am USDA and I don't sell to anyone except individuals that I actually speak with. It is also wrong that all breeders have to be USDA registered to sell to a Pet store. In fact - my understanding - and I have been in USDA educational meetings is that a person selling to a "broker" (not a pet store") has to be USDA registered only if they have more then 3 breeding females - if they are a Hobby breeder with under 3 breeding females they can sell to the broker without being USDA licensed. And to sell straight to a Pet Store, my understanding is that you don't have to be USDA registered. This is straight from a USDA rep that I heard this information. There is a lot of misunderstanding out there by "non breeders" concerning the good and bad of the USDA. I would also tell people that they DO want to buy from a USDA breeder. Where I am located the USDA makes surprise visits at least once a year - if a person is not a licensed breeder, they have NO one to check on them and keep them in line with the care of their dogs. I am checked by USDA, STATE, AND AKC once a year. Our USDA and state inspectors are very strict and I am sure that many "small hobby breeders" would not pass the strict inspections that we have to go through. I do not have to be USDA - but I think it is good for my puppy families that I am. That is just an extra level of security that I am doing a good job.

08-27-2008, 09:01 AM	#18
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	Usda Breeders I just wanted other's to understand that being a USDA breeder doesn't equal being a bad breeder - you have to look at many other things as there are good and bad Hobby breeders, show breeders, and USDA breeders. Any breeder needs to be researched before anyone buys a puppy. I think the most important thing is that you are able to completely trust and feel comfortable about the person you are buying from and don't just buy without asking questions and I think it is very wise to talk to the breeder's vet. References are also good - but a scam artist or a bad breeder can even pull up some good references. But most vet's will be honest when it comes to giving their recommendation for a breeder.

08-27-2008, 09:11 AM	#20
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	Akc I am in AKC's "top 25" for what ever that is worth. and AKC is great at their inspections, but they are not even 1/4 as strict as USDA who is at least twice as strict as just being state licensed. - also AKC doesn't tend to "visit" the Hobby breeders since they have so few AKC registered puppies in a year. One of the very positive things about USDA is that they give very good breeder classes once a year. Between the USDA classes, my breeders club "2 day seminars" and a few other "2 day seminars" that are given by groups that many non USDA don't know of, I go to approx. 30 to 40 hours of classes a year on how to breed for better dogs and how to have healthier dogs. Sorry to say not all USDA breeders go to these classes - but the 2 USDA classes that are offered this summer are totally packed out and if a breeder hasn't registered yet, they can't even go to them. These are excellent classes and there are hundreds or USDA breeders that go to these classes - they are not required by USDA - so there are some USDA breeders that do care. Sometimes when I read post that link all USDA breeders as being "bad news" I do have to think that they are not completely educated on the USDA who is just trying to work to keep breeders that are doing a good job and they do try to put breeders out of business who are not taking care of their animals.

08-27-2008, 09:20 AM	#21
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	looking for a good breeder I love Yorkies and can never imagine myself without one - but as a breeder also, I am just wanting to add some information in a "non emotional" way where ever I can help. I hear from people all the time that talk to breeders that are not good breeders (some USDA and many not USDA) - so it I can give any helps at all to anyone as they are getting ready to get a puppy or have any inquiries after they get a puppy - I would love to be of help.

08-27-2008, 09:28 AM	#23
chachi I Love My Yorkies Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Posts: 37,147	Dont you have to keep your dogs in an outside kennel to be USDA? I know most want to buy from someone where the dogs are inside with the breeder __________________ Chachi's & Jewels Mom Jewels http://www.dogster.com/?132431 Chachi http://www.dogster.com/?132427

08-27-2008, 09:23 AM	#22
BamaFan121s Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 11,432	I think the issue is more "what" they are being stringent about. I think alot of the concern is that guidelines that they are enforcing are not breed or even dog specific or what is thought of as ideal in relation to breeding dogs.

08-27-2008, 09:32 AM	#24
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	true That is often true! My USDA inspector is extremely picking about the total care of the dogs, puppies and their surroundings. If she can find anything wrong - she will. Sometimes I think they go too far - but I know that they are making sure that the dogs and puppies are clean, groomed, have safe and clean surroundings, and are well taken care of - at least my inspector is doing that - Of course, I can't speak for all USDA inspectors. I know that the inspectors are not all equal in how they inspect which can be frustrating to many good USDA breeders.

08-27-2008, 09:47 AM	#25
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	kennel I do have special areas for my dogs. I have seen breeders who say that they have several different breeds - a number of each breed - and they are all in the house. I hope not - if they are - then how are the male dogs being kept from the females - unless they are being kept in crates in the house. My dogs have temperature controlled indoor areas where they have their food, water, and bedding, then they have large yard areas where they can run and play. New babies have to be kept at certain temperatures so I have a special whelping room for my moms when they are due with the babies. My mom dogs are all "house broke". I am a "stay at home" doggy mom - I go out and play with the dogs and let the mom's out of the whelping room where my they are with their new babies several times a day - they are not let out in a "run", they just run around and play in the yard - I have 25 acres but they play between the house and the whelping room - then they come back to the whelping room and bark at the door to come back in. Any of my dogs that get out in the yard and just run around and play, staying in the area where they know as their home and they want to get back into their area after they have played for a while - just like a house pet will run around and play outside then want to get back in the house. They just have a different house. I have not seen any puppies that have been raised "in the home" any friendlier or who love being with people any more then my puppies do. I spend a lot of time with my puppies - there is no guarantee that a puppy raised in the house will have more time spent with it just because it is raised in the house. My sister bought a puppy that was "home raised" and it was the worst puppy she ever had - the puppies really didn't have much attention even though they were "home raised". My puppies have a "kindergarten kennel" they go into when they are 6 weeks old so that they learn how to go potty outside using the doggy door. This helps with the house breaking. Again, we spend a lot of time playing the the puppies and bringing them in the house - playing with them out in the yard - trying to get them used to all kinds of environments before they go to their new homes. I did a lot of checking around before I started raising my first dogs as I wanted to make sure I could do the best possible for my dogs while raising puppies.

08-27-2008, 10:20 AM	#26
ButterflyKisses Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bolivar, Missouri Posts: 66	gotta go I hope that I've only said helpful things - I just wanted to mainly give the tip about talking to the breeder's vet as a way to help check out the breeder. I've got my daughter, son-in-law, and 4 grandkids coming in here is a few weeks after being in Africa for a year and a half, so I am doing some "top to bottom" cleaning of the house. The grandkids are just 8, 3, 2, and 1 - the 1 year old being my first grand daughter of my 6 grandkids and also one I have not had been able to see except on the web cam and pictures being e-mailed to me since she was born in Africa. My other 5 grandkids, I was able to be at the hospital for when they were born. So have got lots and lots to do to get ready for them. Talk to you later!

08-27-2008, 10:21 AM	#27
BamaFan121s Donating YT 10K Club Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 11,432	I think that dogs having to be housed in a separate facility is DEFINATELY a concern. I know it certainly would be to me. And a breeder keeping their dogs inhome does not automatically equate to multiple breeds of intact males and females running loose together unsupervised. Again, this is a perfect example of how it's the actual guidelines being enforced that are issues for people. Being a highly acclaimed USDA breeder and conforming to their guidelines doesn't mean squat to people if the very regulations that you are having to meet are the problem. Last edited by BamaFan121s; 08-27-2008 at 10:23 AM.

08-27-2008, 10:37 AM	#28
jennylee333 YT Addict Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 274	Good Thread I am finding this to be a very interesting thread...There have been good points made by both sides. I do know of some breeders that are horrible...and then there are a couple that seem to have a real nice facilty...NOT that I could put my dogs in a building, but their dogs seem to be happy and well taken care of. And very socialized. I really would like to see how this plays out and if any other breeders come forward for this debate.