Thank you,for your kind words and compliments... we love her dearly.

Jan

I have 2 Yorkshire Terriers and 1 Biewer Yorkshire Terrier ala Pom Pon...so I guess I like the FULL breed name.

On a side note...My MIL nearly came to blows in JoAnn Fabrics with a woman who swore there was no such thing as a Biewer Yorkshire Terrier and kept telling her I was swindled...that Samira is a Shih Tzu!

Takes all kinds doesn't it!! I wonder what the Shih Tzu folk would think of that? :confused: My gracious..

-Diana :animal-pa

I have one Yorkshire Terrier and one Biewer Yorkshire a la pom pon.

I think what is MISleading about this whole thread is the fact that it isn't just the name change being questioned. Most breeders and fanciers that I have talked with realize that, in order to move towards having these dogs AKC sanctioned, the "yorkshire" will most likely need to be dropped in the future. The problem with the "Biewer Terrier" at this time, is this dog is being marketed as a "breed of it's own" and MARS DNA testing have "proven" that there is mixes within the breed. Personally, I do know know IF there's something else in the mix, and at some time there may be a reputable test to prove that. Some type of "mixes" I might be able to consider -- but the word is getting out that the MARS test show a great variety of dogs involved. Saluki, Bernese Mountain Dog, Bassett Hound, Welsh Springer Spaniel... This test only goes back 3 generations, based on their website.

It is my understanding (and I could be wrong here) that in order for a "new" breed to be accepted by AKC, it has to have a mix of 3 different breeds, and they have to be bred pure for a number of generations. Now, I'm sure there is more to it, but if this is the reason that some are trying to prove that these mixes are in the breed -- just to get AKC recognition -- then something is wrong here.

In the short amount of time I have been involved in this breed -- I have not seen any "throwbacks" that I would think might pop up if indeed these mixes exist. I have seen large dogs (just like with the Yorkie)... but Bernese Mountain dog? Dogs with very big ears... but Bassett Hound? My Biewer can run like a Saluki... but I hardly think my 6 pound girl is mixed with one. Shoot -- I'm waiting to see when we're told that an Irish Wolfhound was in the mix somewhere. (that was a joke -- hopefully!)

So... for the near future... I have a Biewer Yorkshire a la pom pon!

I hope that it is many years down the road for the Biewer being recognized as an AKC breed, as I feel there is still too many unknowns -- due to the amount of inbreeding at the beginning of the breed. I would rather keep them a "rare" breed, rather than an "extinct" one.

JMHO

i think that is a good name for them.. take the terrier word out..


:thumbup::thumbup:So... for the near future... I have a Biewer Yorkshire a la pom pon!

"It is my understanding (and I could be wrong here) that in order for a "new" breed to be accepted by AKC, it has to have a mix of 3 different breeds, and they have to be bred pure for a number of generations. Now, I'm sure there is more to it, but if this is the reason that some are trying to prove that these mixes are in the breed -- just to get AKC recognition -- then something is wrong here.


And how does anyone know there aren't three breeds in the Biewer--like the Yorkie, Maltese and Pom, maybe? Over 100 dogs have been tested and continue to be tested--if you are not one of the dogs' owners, how would any of you know what the results are???

Facts, go a lot further IMHO than pontificating. Those who can, do. Those who can't....

:)i think the biewers can be registered with the rare breed association.. is that the arba? does this count for anything?:aimeeyork:)

That was rather rude and insulting.

Yes, the Biewers can be shown with rare breed associations. There is the IABCA, NAKC and now ARBA in the United States. There is at least one club in Canada that they can also be shown in. The IABCA and NAKC shows use AKC judges. I would imagine the same would be true about ARBA, but I do not know that personally. I'm sure someone else can confirm that.

IABCA is not a rare breed association. They register and allow to show all AKC recognized dogs and also several that are not recognized (this is usually considered "rare breeds"

It is awesome to have these opportunities with the different show venues.

Here is a little history for the IABCA - International All Breed Canine Association

International Dog Shows - Alle Rasse Gruppe
International Dog Shows (also known as Alle Rasse Gruppe, German for All Breed Club) is the Dog Show arm of IABCA. It is a family business that has been operating nationally for twenty years. We put on dog shows all across the US (with some shows in Canada as well). The company is licensed through our parent company, Union Cynologie International (UCI). UCI is a German dog club that has shows throughout Europe, as well as licensed shows in parts of Asia, Mexico, and South America.

The BTCA (Biewer Terrier Club of America) has also recently been accepted under the umbrella of the UCI! That makes 2 groups in the US that are associated with UCI.


This is the misson statement for ARBA;
ARBA also offers these services:
Rare Breed Dog registrations
Rare Breed Conformation Dog Shows
Judges Seminars
Public awareness and education.
Conformation Dog Shows
Championship Titles
Obedience Titles
Canine Citizenship Program

Having the different venues to show the Biewers is great, but eventually getting to show AKC would be super great. We know the Biewers can hold there own at these other venues, but AKC would be the real test if we are breeding truly great dogs.

I cringe to think about what would happen if they ever were accepted into the AKC. As it is, there are many who don't give them much consideration because of their lack of AKC recognition. Theorectically speaking, if and when that ever happened, there will come a time when the Biewer is the current going fad and they are poorly bred and mass produced for the sake of the almighty $$$ (as the Yorkies are being now) thus doing the dogs a HUGE injustice. :( I'm sure it will happen sooner or later, just not a pleasant thought to entertain.

Unfortunately I know of a couple of places already breeding without regard for the breed. The high prices that bring in comparison to most dogs has brought that to be. I unfortunately sold one of the dogs into these conditions. A reference check was done, but did not bring up the conditions at this place. I now do a background check and call state and local animal agencies. We should never trust just the given references alone, as they would not knowingly give a bad reference. (I did have a person give their vet, who in turn told us that the dogs were filthy. Oops! they did not get a dog from me!) I don't want to ever have this on my conscience again. I love my dogs too much to let them end up in a place that has no regard for them.

I don't know if the other breeder even knows that one of her dogs is in the situation it is in. I know about it because I called about the dog when it was put into an auction. I was hoping that a rescue could purchase it. Unfortunately it was beyond the budget of the rescue.
The Biewers that have been sold at the dog auctions, no one cares where they go except that the person was willing to pay the highest price. If the owner would have cared they would not have put them in the auction.

"And how does anyone know there aren't three breeds in the Biewer--like the Yorkie, Maltese and Pom, maybe? Over 100 dogs have been tested and continue to be tested--if you are not one of the dogs' owners, how would any of you know what the results are???

Facts, go a lot further IMHO than pontificating. "

I agree so it would sure be helpful to end all the drama if you would post your facts. I have personally seen 3 emails with the results and they were all with different breeds. While I realize that is a small number it doesn't help. I am sure everyone in the Biewer community would end the back and forth stuff if the facts were posted. I am sure there are some mixes in the bunch as we saw the so called Biewer in California. We can't just point fingers at Germany because they did not have DNA on their registered pups because neither did the AKC until 1999. So I am also sure some Yorkies were sold that were not pure yorkies either.

I agree a 1000% and I know you learned a very valuable lesson. The Biewers should be treated like gold and all references should be double checked. We have seen to many people know how to lie and say the right things to a breeder so it is the breeders responsibility to check out all sources. You even have to be concerned with a vets recommendations as they have also lied to breeders but animal control will know in many cases if they are shady or not. If they are breeding other breeds I would also check that out with parent clubs to see what they have to say.

That is so sad about the auction..did you know who the breeder was? I think I would have emailed them just to make sure they had not sold them to another breeder who put the dog in the auction. Again, the first breeder didn't care or follow up with the 2nd breeder if that was the case.

I don't know the results from everyone's dogs, but I have seen the chart where they plotted the Biewers' results and some known purebred yorkies. The Biewer dots were pretty much clumped together and away from the yorkie dots, which were also clumped.
My Biewers turned out for the most part to be yorkie and maltese and unidentifiable. I guess that explains the cottony coats!
I still suggest that everyone tests their dogs. It is not 100% accurate, but 80% is better than no information at all. Many people have said on the forums that we need to gather information. This is a form of information whether you want to do the test or not.
My dogs have the regular DNA profiles and now the MARS DNA profile. I do blood profiles for information, and vet exams for information. I try to gather EVERYTHING I can, not just what I think will be favorable.

Oh I'm sure there are. (Not that my statement was meant as a gateway for pointing fingers though.) Point being, I can just invision the rush and increase of that if they were ever recognized. You already see some creeping up out of the woodwork trying to get their hands on one...asking questions about breeding 'just because they are curious,' nevermind the other numerous breeds and dogs they've been through in the past during times of high demand and since discarded when the fad had passed. I understand the reasoning behind the high price tag on these dogs at the current time--I think that many times it is the only thing that deters these types of people from experimenting now.:(

I agree Bama. To many people are selling these dogs to breeders who don't have a clue about these dogs (history or health) and are just churning them out. I just don't understand the rush until we stabilze this breed/color variation and have the best breeders breeding for health and confirmation. Everyone has been in a rush to sell show quality when most of them are not even on their 3rd generation to see how there dogs are developing. We have breeders that cannot read a pedigree to see how closely the dogs are related and they are breeding them. The tools are out there (Pedigree Data Base Welcome to the Pedigree Database ) that would help breeders see how related their lines are but the Biewer community is not loading up their pedigree's. In order to safeguard this breed the dogs should be removed by 5 generations. I don't understand why people will not load the data base if everyone is saying they are doing everything for the "betterment of the dogs".

I did not know the people that were putting the dog in the auction. The breeder that sold the dog to these people (they had many breeds and other Biewers so they did not need this male) is a member of a club that thinks I just spread lies and rumors. I am sure she would not have believed me. I was even going to go to the auction in Oklahoma, but the weather was bad that weekend. Travel advisories kept me home. I just wanted to see where he ended up, keep track of him in a way.

I am sure there are many many Biewers out there that we don't know about. These type of breeders don't join clubs, don't show. All of this costs money and they want to keep costs down, so they can make even greater profits.

LOL...the way all of the different clubs fight amongst themselves, I can't say I blame them for keeping to themselves! :p Kidding of course--I realize the need to contribute on a bigger scale and the reasoning for doing so, to put it briefly. I know that many trying to turn a profit couldn't care less about being affiliated with anyone other than their pocketbooks.

I think if you posted the facts that the dog was breed by so and so and the dog turned up at the auction (you would have to prove it was the same dog) then at least you are trying to protect the breed and people.

Did I point fingers at anyone? I blamed myself for the dog being where he is at. You have given another example of how people twist things on the forums to create tension.

We were having a civil conversation this morning and you go and write that. This is exactly why I should not have given you any information!

What the...? :confused: I didn't mean that as an accusatory statement directed at YOU! It was meant more as a genereal statement. After I read back over my OWN post, I actually thought it sounded like I was the one pointing fingers and opening the floor for accusations, which was why I tried to clarify that was not my intent.

I agree with that statement. While I am certainly not an expert...after viewing some "biewer" ads on puppyfind I wondered if perhaps there was a way...some sellers search for puppies which commanded high prices and only see dollar signs.

That's so sad about your puppy and I'm glad now you've found additional methods to determine if they are going to homes you truly wish to place them.

This is what is so frustrating about communicating on the forums, internet, email, etc. Because we don't hear or see a person "talking" or the intonations in their voice, the written word can be taken so many ways and interpreted so many ways:( No matter how many times we re-read what we write, interpretations vary.
I just recently mis interpreted an email from a family member, and boy did it cause a headache, not until we talked on the phone it was like, oh, that is what you meant!!! Can really be frustrating
For what it is worth Misty, I read that sentence as you clarifying that you had no particular breeder or individual in mind when you wrote it.

Throwing in my 3rd party opinion...I read Bama's comment as a general statement.

None of us here can say that we know for sure what is in this breed. We have had to trust the written history of the breed, what we have been told, and what we have read. Could something have been mixed into this breed as a whole or just into certain lines....sure. Unless you are actually there to see the breeding of the dogs, then you have to trust the information that has been shared with us. I think it is important that everyone keep an open mind when trying to further develop this breed as there are so many unanswered questions. We are all still learning and you cannot learn if you are not open to different possibilities.

As for the name of the dog, as others have said, I too believe that one day the Yorkshire will need to be dropped from the name.....just don't see the rush in it. As for the changing of the standard for the Biewer Terrier, this is something that I just do not agree with. I have no doubt that one day the standard will need to be changed from the one that was given to us by Germany. I just don't see what the rush is. Why not get a better understanding of this breed, watch the generations grow here in the U.S., and then go from there? I also do not want to see the standard changed just to suit what some are seeing wthin the breed. We should be developing a standard based on what we want to see in this breed as the standard is supposed to be what we are all striving to produce. Sure, this means that we have a whole lot of work ahead of us, but look at what the result could be! We could have a beautiful breed with all of the qualities that we WANT to see in this breed rather than dogs that fit the standard that was written around them.

In determining what is within the breed, I am all for testing my dogs if / when a test becomes available that I feel can do this. I know that the members of the BTCA feel that the MARS DNA test is the test that can do this and I applaude them for their work. Personally, I do not feel that the MARS test is an adequate test to determine what is behind the Biewers. Their website clearly states that they are not able to test pure bred dogs and many Biewer owners have written MARS asking if they feel if their test is capable of testing these dogs. The simple answer received from them is no, they do not feel that it is. What I do not understand is why this information is being forced upon others. If some feel that this test is accurate, great, go for it! Please respect those who do not though. I have seen comments posted by some stating that those who do not believe the MARS testing are ignorant, refuse to believe in scientific studies, and one comment went as low as to state that of course someone who doesn't believe in modern denistry would not believe in modern science. Why? What does this accomplish? While it would be great if all of the clubs could just work together for the betterment of the breed, I do not see this happening. But why the nastiness? Why can't everyone just focus on their own goals for the breed? If you come across information that you feel is important for all to know, then share it.....but then leave it for others to take as they want. If they want to take the information and work on it as well, then great. If they don't feel that is the path that they want to take, then great. No harm done!

Sorry, I usually stay out of these kinds of posts but am just so tired of the bickering and childishness. To answer the original question, I have Biewer Yorkshire Terriers until a test that I feel is accurate shows me otherwise.

I don't consider them two different breeds...just a different color of the same breed...

I'm going to ask Admin to please close this thread as it seems to have been hijacked by the same people that always come out to start a feud!:(