Health Guarantee
 

Do breeders follow a standard practice in health guarantees? I have a situation where the breeder's vet disagrees with my vet about whether a condition my puppy has can be called a life threatening congenital defect. My bill of sale for the puppy states that upon veterinary certification of a problem my purchase price will be refunded but that the breeder reserves the right to have the dog and/or medical records examined by her vet. I sent the records and now she's arguing that her vet says the diagnosis is inconclusive and testing needs to be redone next month. Meanwhile my vet says he saw a liver shunting on the ultrasound and acid biles are very high (55). He says my baby needs surgery right away to save his life and that he'll always have to take pepcid, antibiotics and prescription diet. The breeder offerred instead of a refund and letting me keep the puppy she wants to buy him back and reimburse me for the testing if there really is shunting. She says she wants to take care of him herself because she trusts her people more. What kind of guarantees are normal?

Health guarantees can vary from seller to seller. I don't think having your records examined by her vet is unusual. Sometimes I've read guarantees which state the animal must be examined by their vet...or by a third party vet.

That being said...while the bile levels are elevated they are not so high as to immediately diagnose liver shunt. He may have mvd which is control by diet and medicines. Ultrasounds aren't very accurate as testing for liver shunt either. Mvd is still considered a congential defect. At this stage I certainly would not reliquish puppy....

Being that I have 2 that are constantly being BAT - I have to say that 55 is not very high, and an u/s is not 100% accurate. Most are not qualified to read a u/s and even those that are extremely qualified can not say 100% for sure.

Tell us more please? How old is your pup? Does he show any symptoms, and if so, what are they? Has he had his vaccines around the time of BAT, or heartworm meds or flea/tick meds (as these can throw the BAT # off)

My girls first BAT had a post of 100.9 - we did other blood tests and urine tests to see if anything else leaned towards shunt, and all came back fine. We did a u/s that was performed by someone experienced and they saw a normal size liver and a normal shape liver. They did not see a shunt, but they told me that doesn't mean these isn't one (they are not an accurate tool). We change her diet and added supplements to aid in liver repair. We have done about 4 more BATs in the meantime and her post # has come down to the low 60s. I do not want to open her up to do a liver biopsy as that would tell me if she had MVD or a shunt or nothing, and based on what my specialist and my general vet says, they believe she has MVD, based on her test results and based that she doesn't show any classic shunt symptoms.

My boys first BAT was 43 and we didn't do a u/s on him. We did do a full blood panel and urine test and it showed all normal. We have BAT him about 3 times, and his post has come down to 3 - he is also eating a home cooked, low but quality protein diet and I give him supplements to aid in liver repair.

Honestly, I would not JUMP into to a major surgery based on 1 BAT of 55 and and a U/S (when they aren't even guaranteed to be 100% accurate).

I would BAT him again, do a full blood panel, a urinalysis and a coagulation and then go from there. I would also be seeing an Internal Medicine Specialist.

We all want whats best for our babies, but if I were you, I would do a little more testing and research before I open him up for an invasive surgery.

I am here if you need to talk, as there are others who are in the same boat as us.

P.S. I agree that I would NOT give the pup back.

Whatever it is, the breeder sold me a defective dog and should honor her guarantee and give me my money without taking away the dog. My vet said the dog is sick and that's good enough for me. Vets don't lie about these things. The breeder is a no good bum as far as I'm concerned!

So far, it sounds as if the breeder is standing by her health guarantee. I have never heard of getting your money refunded, and getting to keep the puppy.

you seem to already made up your mind, but i would personally get a second opinion Vets can make mistakes, whethere was yours or hers. i never really seen any health g. that refunds ur money and lets you keep your pup. anyways hugs and kisses for your baby!!!!

hmmm....I don't know what else to say to you as it seems your mind is made up!

Honestly, I would be concerned about the pup first and foremost, as he only has you to do what's best for him. All we are saying is to gather as much info regarding whether he truly has a Shunt, MVD or something else or nothing.

(1) BAT of 55 and a U/S performed by a general vet isn't enough proof for me to jump into an invasive surgery.

Roxy's first BAT of 100.9 was in definite Shunt territory, but I first got a second opinion from a Board Cert. Specialist, then we did further blood tests, etc. Then we did a U/S (which I wish I didn't b/c it was a waste of money not being 100% accurate) there are other things to spend $ on that would give better results.

I know that you say Vets don't lie, and hopefully that's true all the time, but they aren't perfect with diagnosis being dead on. If you do a search here for Liver Shunts or MVD - you can read all about the 2 conditions, and how people recommend from their experiences how they are diagnosed.

I wish you nothing but the best. Please keep us posted.

HAHA great minds think alike!!!! ;)

The guarantee is very clear, "purchase price will be refunded." There's nothing about taking back to puppy. She said it face to face when i was there "if a problem comes up I will refund your money and let you decide how to proceed with the puppy." But now the excuses have started--she needs more testing before accepting this is a life threatening congenital defect. If I don't do these other tests she will only give me a refund if I return the puppy. Not fair changing the rules after the game is in progress!

But you have to understand what we are saying. (1) BAT of 55 doesn't prove there is a shunt or MVD. You have to do a little more testing, b/c there are things that could throw the BAT # off, including a spasm at the time of blood draw.

Also, a U/S is not an accurate tool to measuring whether a shunt or mvd is present.

That's all we are saying.

You need to do a little more to prove your case to her and then YES she should stand behind her contract and give you a refund if MVD or a Shunt is present.

Why did you have a BAT done anyway? Was he acting strange? We are just trying to get a better understanding and help you :(

To be honest...there hasn't been enough testing to determine whether your pup has a shunt or mvd. Puppy needs the additional tests. The bile number is low enough...it is likely mvd. You need the additional testing to determine this. Have your vet perform a protein C test...that one will tell you which it is. It is a blood test. There are many people here...experienced with either condition and can offer you advice.

I would have the protein C testing completed...and proceed from there.

Once it is definitely determined...I would ask for the refund. If that is what her contract says....a refund...if she doesn't give it to you willingly...the court will side with you.

It is far too early for anyone to advise surgery at this point.

Not strange. I knew Yorkies get liver shunt and decided to check, just in case he did, and sure enough he does. Dr. said she's pretty sure there's a big shunt on the ultrasound. My only concern, except for the money, is that they think the surgery will help but won't cure him totally, he'll still need diet and medicine. This breeder keeps saying same thing over and over: "bile acid of 50 is inconclusive. You have to retest bat later and follow up with protein c if still high, then go to scintigraphy because ultrasound isn't good enough. You need to get a second opinion. Sell me back the puppy and I'll get it all done myself. Why did you get those lepto vaccines. You're not supposed to vaccinate Yorkies for lepto, yak yak yak." I hate that woman.

I would have to agree with the breeder. Someone on here just a few days ago about a vet putting their dogs thru Liver Shunt surgery and they didn't even have it. Not only that but I have a friend that was in exactly the same situation as you are. One vet said the puppy had Liver shunt and my friend refunded full purchase price and paid some vet bills. The paperwork was faxed to my friends vet and THREE different vets said the puppy did not have Liver Shunt but kidney failure related most likely to a Lept shot the other vet had given. So I can also see that you are determined to bad mouth the breeder and I have to say I agree with her. And she is abiding by the contract.. I just saw where you gave the puppy the Lepto shot. If she offered to buy the puppy back then what more do you want. Her puppy and her money?

I always thought if they refunded your money the pup was to be returned. If breeders let you keep the pup and refund your money there would be lots and lots of people saying their pups were defective. Its kind of like have your cake and eat it too.

That's what she told me and what her contract says "full refund of purchase price upon veterinary certification of the problem." She specifically said she wouldn't force anyone to return the puppy. She wants too much from me. I have full faith in my vet practice and they're convenient to my home. This breeder wants me to go to some out of town place to see vets she thinks are so-called experts in liver problems. I don't have time for that. She should keep to her original promise and stop bothering me with all her other little requirements. My vet insists lepto vaccine is harmless, bat of 50 is vedr very bad, and ultrasound appears to show large liver shunt and we need surgery immediately. So that's it. Puppy gets surgery tomorrow and I'll sue that breeder if I have to. My husband is a lawyer and will know how to straighten her out.

I have to totally agree with you here if something were wrong with one of my babies i would not expect to get a refund and to keep the puppy to. I am sorry but that is just unheard of.

I never said it was strange that you did a BAT, I asked if he was acting strange that lead you to think he may have a shunt?

I would NEVER - EVER - In a Million Years open one of mine up for Liver Shunt surgery based on 1 BAT of 55 and based on my general Vet saying he is 'pretty sure he saw a big shunt on an ultrasound" - NEVER - Not without further more accurate and additional BATs that the #s were still high.

You are very brave to do that.

Look, I am pretty upset with my breeder too, but to be honest, I would have to agree with what she is telling you to do, with the more tests and such, and honestly, why wouldn't you want to be more accurate with a diagnosis, why would you want to subject him to being put under if it is not the case.

IDK :(

This is just too stressful and I want it all settled. I don't like things unfinished. Wait for this and that and probably still end up needing surgery, so why not just get it over with. They'll fix the shunt, if there is any, and take a biopsy. The puppy will only be in the hospital a few days and then come home. What's the harm in that? At least we'll know for sure what is going on, and I only have to come up with half the money if that breeder pays me like she's supposed to. Makes sense to me and my vet.

The little fella with be in my prays - I hope you'll keep us posted on his surgery and progress.....

Well let's see....you could've had a protein c test done for probably under 75 bucks....the surgery is costing you what? $2500? More? I would NOT under any circumstances have one of mine....especially a puppy...undergo unnecessary surgery. :(

I hope you are aware..."fixing" the shunt doesn't necessarily mean he won't take medicines or be on a special diet his entire life....

Why would you want to put that poor baby through that if it is not necessary? What if you go ahead with the surgery just to find out that it wasn't needed at all then that poor baby went through all of that for nothing :(

I have a friend that is a vet.... we could really start up a business if I could get my money back and keep the dog too....
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
Not that I am accusing anyone of anything.....

If you want to see....the harm in it...click the link below...scroll down and look at these pictures. I'm sorry but your decision seems very hasty imo.

Liver_Shunt

EXCELLENT POST

....so sad....

Sounds to me like this person wants a free dog....I feel so sorry for the breeder and the puppy....how sad....

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

I don't get the impression...that the op has puppy's best interest at heart. :(

If she had the puppy's best interest at heart she wouldn't rush to surgery on an ultra sound but do the stignigphy (can't spell the word) or do the protein C test ect....before doing major surgery....Sorry but I disagree...

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

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