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-   -   Signs of Aggression? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-training-questions/69678-signs-aggression.html)

lolabella 02-20-2007 08:03 PM

Signs of Aggression?
 
My husband and I have just witnessed a concerning behavior from Mia. My husband had just returned from the grocery store with a bag, placed it on the couch and our cat was peeping inside. Suddenly Mia snapped at the cat from the ground, growled and bit his leg. She did not bite hard or anything, but this was not play behavior. She was plainly aggressive. I guess she thought there was something for her in the plastic bag.
This aggressive behavior concerns me because we are going to be bringing a new pup home soon, and I don't want Mia to become possessive and have problems. Has anyone witnessed a similar situation? How do I deal with this?
Mia is a very sweet girl, and it is scary to see her snap into an aggressive character without a warning.

BLowry 02-20-2007 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolabella (Post 965479)
My husband and I have just witnessed a concerning behavior from Mia. My husband had just returned from the grocery store with a bag, placed it on the couch and our cat was peeping inside. Suddenly Mia snapped at the cat from the ground, growled and bit his leg. She did not bite hard or anything, but this was not play behavior. She was plainly aggressive. I guess she thought there was something for her in the plastic bag.
This aggressive behavior concerns me because we are going to be bringing a new pup home soon, and I don't want Mia to become possessive and have problems. Has anyone witnessed a similar situation? How do I deal with this?
Mia is a very sweet girl, and it is scary to see her snap into an aggressive character without a warning.


How old is Mia?

Sadie (my adult) was/is a very sweet dog however she does have aggression and dominance issues. She, for no reason, will go after the cat and he is 22 LBS!!! She has no fear well, now the puppy is doing it...Sadie will also get aggressive with Lillie sometimes...especially if I am vaccuming or sweeping...I spoke with a trainer and she told me that this is something that I will probably never be able to stop...She told me that I could control it when I see it happening...I have been working with Sadie now for about 5 months and she seems to be doing better...with Lillie....not the cat. If you find a way to stop this please share!!

lolabella 02-20-2007 08:43 PM

Mia is 10 months. She does go after the cat playfully, but our cat is very tolerating. He is usually willing to play along as long as Mia doesn't hurt him. If the cat starts complaining we intervene immediately. We've also blocked off a room with a baby gate so that our cat can have some peace when he wants to.
What made tonight's event more concerning is that Mia seemed more aggressive than usual. The cat is good at defending himself, but I don't know how things will work out with the puppy.
I guess we will just have to watch the animals very closely, talk to our trainer, and see how things work out.
Maybe we need to work on a new training command like "stop it." Luckily Mia is a smartie and responds well to consistant training.

FirstYorkie 02-21-2007 12:26 AM

This best thing that could happen is for the cat to turn around and swipe at Mia. Back when we had a cat and a Siberian Husky, the Husky liked to chase the cat. After a few times of getting his nose bloodied from a swipe of Morgan's paw, he quit.

Other than that, I can't think of much advice right now, but I wish you luck!

FirstYorkie 02-21-2007 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolabella (Post 965539)
Maybe we need to work on a new training command like "stop it." Luckily Mia is a smartie and responds well to consistant training.

Oops! Just saw that part of your post. In that case, sure, teach her a new command. Personally, I would use something like "Leave it" which can apply to other things besides the cat. That way, you get more opportunity to practice. Good luck!

Candini 02-21-2007 12:50 AM

Isn't 10 months just considered puppy behaviour? I mean easier to stop at this age?

I know our 4 month old sometimes bites us too hard and we of course yell to stop and also give her a toy to bite on.

lolabella 02-21-2007 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candini (Post 965703)
Isn't 10 months just considered puppy behaviour? I mean easier to stop at this age?


I sure hope so. :)

lolabella 02-21-2007 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie (Post 965700)
This best thing that could happen is for the cat to turn around and swipe at Mia. Back when we had a cat and a Siberian Husky, the Husky liked to chase the cat. After a few times of getting his nose bloodied from a swipe of Morgan's paw, he quit.

Yea, actually I am afraid of something like that happening. That's why we intervene when the cat complains too much. They mostly bite each other's ears and try to sit on one another. But, I am afraid our cat will hurt Mia's eyes if he gets too pissed off, which may be irreparable. They are the same height, and the cat weighs a bit more. Our cat does attack Mia back, but the claws never come out. I kinda want to keep it that way.

Thank you for the "leave it" idea though. We'll start working on that today :)

roultjm 02-22-2007 01:28 PM

It would be a good idea to watch and make sure she is not becoming the Alpha Dog. You need to be the Alpha dog to head off injury to other pets. Usually you can tell if she is playing or it they have that look in their eye of "i'm going to get you" and then the aggression is on. Have you ever seen the dog whisper on discovery channel? you can pick up some neat ideas and things to head off before they start..

marcerella02 02-22-2007 04:06 PM

we are having the same problem.. we just got back from obedience and again i am in tears... it's like layla has a limit or a certain amount of time that she is friendly .. and then a whole different dog appears... she is especailly mean around puppies... today the trainer flipped her over on her back when she got out of hand and held her there until she stopped fighting... i'm not sure if it is helpful to you or not but just know you aren't alone on this one!

roultjm 02-23-2007 08:47 AM

today the trainer flipped her over on her back when she got out of hand and held her there until she stopped fighting

This is just what the dog whisper does. He says it's how you show the aggressive one that YOU are the leader. And it seemed to work he had to do that a couple of times but the dog got the idea and submissed to him that is what you want. But you have to do that to your dog. Right now the dog views the trainer as the Leader and will submit to him. But you need your dog to see you that way.

FirstYorkie 02-23-2007 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roultjm (Post 969832)
[COLOR="Red"]This is just what the dog whisper does. He says it's how you show the aggressive one that YOU are the leader. .

Right. Because the poor, less than 10 pound pup might confuse a 100 lb + human and a creature who says "meow" as members of his wolf pack.

bornnygurl 02-23-2007 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie (Post 970243)
Right. Because the poor, less than 10 pound pup might confuse a 100 lb + human and a creature who says "meow" as members of his wolf pack.

Sorry, but I don't see how that statement is helpful to the person in question.

Also, it takes more than just alpha rolls to become the leader of the pack. Sometimes depending on how dominant the dog is it takes a little time to establish yourself as so. As far is alpha rolls it really depends on the dog. One training method does not work for all dogs in one behavior problem; Just as one training method does not work for all dogs in all behavior problems.

dcelmo 02-23-2007 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcerella02 (Post 968821)
we are having the same problem.. we just got back from obedience and again i am in tears... it's like layla has a limit or a certain amount of time that she is friendly .. and then a whole different dog appears... she is especailly mean around puppies... today the trainer flipped her over on her back when she got out of hand and held her there until she stopped fighting... i'm not sure if it is helpful to you or not but just know you aren't alone on this one!

But what do you do when you flip the dog on his back and he never stays? Chewie will never give up and relax. He stays tense and if I let go he bolts. He has major food agression problems and I have tried everything and nothing works. He jumped up on my 3 year old grandson today and took his chip out of his hand, and managed to get a piece of his finger too. Now he is afraid of the dog and I don't blame him. I have seriouly considered rehoming Chewie because of fear of him biting one of my grandkids over food? Any help?

FirstYorkie 02-24-2007 04:03 AM

dcelmo,

According to the trainers that I've talked to, it's highly unlikely that "alpha-rolling" Chewie is going to teach him not to guard his food. There are better ways. Here is a link to an article that outlines the procedure that I used with Joey. It's worked extremely well for us!
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ctguarding.htm

FirstYorkie 02-24-2007 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bornnygurl (Post 971182)
Sorry, but I don't see how that statement is helpful to the person in question.

Oh, sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I don't think that Mia is confused that the cat or her humans are "members of her pack". Therefore, I don't think that alpha-rolling her will be helpful. I have told Lolabella what I thought would be helpful above - ie teaching a "leave it" command.

I'm with you on leadership. The best article I've ever read on leadership is the NILIF Program by Deb McKean. I will post it below.

FirstYorkie 02-24-2007 05:00 AM

NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE (NILIF)


The NILIF program is remarkable because it's effective for such a wide variety of problems. A shy, timid dog becomes more relaxed knowing that he has nothing to worry about, his owner is in charge of all things. A dog that's pushing too hard to become "top dog" learns that the position is not available and that his life is far more enjoyable without the title.

It is equally successful with dogs that fall anywhere between those two extremes. The program is not difficult to put into effect and it's not time consuming if the dog already knows a few basic obedience commands. I've never seen this technique fail to bring about a positive change in behavior, however, the change can be more profound in some dogs than others. Most owners use this program in conjunction with other behavior modification techniques such as coping with fear or treatment for aggression. It is a perfectly suitable technique for the dog with no major behavior problems that just needs some fine tuning.

ATTENTION ON DEMAND
The program begins by eliminating attention on demand. When your dog comes to you and nudges your hand, saying "pet me! pet me!" ignore him. Don't tell him "no", don't push him away. Simply pretend you don't notice him. This has worked for him before, so don't be surprised if he tries harder to get your attention. When he figures out that this no longer works, he'll stop. In a pack situation, the top ranking dogs can demand attention from the lower ranking ones, not the other way around. When you give your dog attention on demand you're telling him that he has more status in the pack than you do. Timid dogs become stressed by having this power and may become clingy. They're never sure when you'll be in charge so they can't relax. What if something scary happens, like a stranger coming in the house? Who will handle that? The timid dog that is demanding of attention can be on edge a lot of the time because he has more responsibility than he can handle.

Some dogs see their ability to demand attention as confirmation that they are the "alpha", then become difficult to handle when told to "sit" or "down" or some other demand is placed on them. It is not their leadership status that stresses them out, it's the lack of consistency. They may or may not actually be alpha material, but having no one in the pack that is clearly the leader is a bigger problem than having the dog assume that role full time. Dogs are happiest when the pack order is stable. Tension is created by a constant fluctuation of pack leadership.

EXTINCTION BURSTS
Your dog already knows that he can demand your attention and he knows what works to get that to happen. As of today, it no longer works, but he doesn't know that yet. We all try harder at something we know works when it stops working. If I gave you a twenty dollar bill every time you clapped your hands together, you'd clap a lot. But, if I suddenly stopped handing you money, even though you were still clapping, you'd clap more and clap louder. You might even get closer to me to make sure I was noticing that you were clapping. You might even shout at me "Hey! I'm clapping like crazy over here, where's the money?". If I didn't respond at all, in any way, you'd stop. It wasn't working anymore. That last try -- that loud, frequent clapping is an extinction burst. If, however, during that extinction burst, I gave you another twenty dollar bill you'd be right back in it. It would take a lot longer to get you to stop clapping because you just learned that if you try hard enough, it will work.

When your dog learns that the behaviors that used to get him your attention don't work any more he's going to try harder and he's going to have an extinction burst. If you give him attention during that time you will have to work that much harder to get him turned around again. Telling him "no" or pushing him away is not the kind of attention he's after, but it's still attention. Completely ignoring him will work faster and better.

YOU HAVE THE POWER
As the human and as his owner you have control of all things that are wonderful in his life. This is the backbone of the NILIF program. You control all of the resources. Playing, attention, food, walks, going in and out of the door, going for a ride in the car, going to the dog park. Anything and everything that your dog wants comes from you. If he's been getting most of these things for free there is no real reason for him to respect your leadership or your ownership of these things. Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge.

To implement the NILIF program you simply have to have your dog earn his use of your resources. He's hungry? No problem, he simply has to sit before his bowl is put down. He wants to play fetch? Great! He has to "down" before you throw the ball. Want to go for a walk or a ride? He has to sit to get his lead snapped on and has to sit while the front door is opened. He has to sit and wait while the car door is opened and listen for the word (I use "OK") that means "get into the car". When you return he has to wait for the word that means "get out of the car" even if the door is wide open. Don't be too hard on him. He's already learned that he can make all of these decisions on his own. He has a strong history of being in control of when he gets these resources. Enforce the new rules, but keep in mind that he's only doing what he's been taught to do and he's going to need some time to get the hang of it all.

You're going to have to pay attention to things that you probably haven't noticed before. If you feed your dog from your plate do you just toss him a green bean? No more. He has to earn it. You don't have to use standard obedience commands, any kind of action will do. If your dog knows "shake" or "spin around" or "speak" use those commands. Does your dog sleep on your bed? Teach him that he has to wait for you to say "OK" to get on the bed and he has to get down when you say "off". Teach him to go to his bed, or other designated spot, on command. When he goes to his spot and lays down tell him "stay" and then release him with a treat reward. Having a particular spot where he stays is very helpful for when you have guests or otherwise need him out of the way for a while. It also teaches him that free run of the house is a resource that you control. There are probably many things that your dog sees as valuable resources that I haven't mentioned here.

The NILIF program should not be a long, drawn out process. All you need to do is enforce a simple command before allowing him access to what he wants. Dinner, for example, should be a two or three second encounter that consists of nothing more than saying "sit", then "good dog!", then putting the bowl down and walking away.

ATTENTION AND PLAY
Now that your dog is no longer calling the shots you will have to make an extra effort to provide him with attention and play time. Call him to you, have him "sit" and then lavish him with as much attention as you want. Have him go get his favorite toy and play as long as you both have the energy. The difference is that now you will be the one initiating the attention and beginning the play time. He's going to depend on you now, a lot more than before, to see that he gets what he needs. What he needs most is quality time with you. This would be a good time to enroll in a group obedience class. If his basic obedience is top notch, see about joining an agility class or fly ball team.

NILIF DOES *NOT* MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO RESTRICT THE AMOUNT OF ATTENTION YOU GIVE TO YOUR DOG. The NILIF concept speaks to who initiates the attention (you!), not the amount of attention. Go ahead and call your dog to you 100 times a day for hugs and kisses!! You can demand his attention, he can no longer demand yours!

Within a day or two your dog will see you in a whole new light and will be eager to learn more. Use this time to teach new things, such as 'roll over' or learn the specific names of different toys.

If you have a shy dog, you'll see a more relaxed dog. There is no longer any reason to worry about much of anything. He now has complete faith in you as his protector and guide. If you have a pushy dog he'll be glad that the fight for leadership is over and his new role is that of devoted and adored pet.



?1999 Deb McKean

bornnygurl 02-24-2007 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie (Post 971416)
Oh, sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I don't think that Mia is confused that the cat or her humans are "members of her pack". Therefore, I don't think that alpha-rolling her will be helpful. I have told Lolabella what I thought would be helpful above - ie teaching a "leave it" command.

I'm with you on leadership. The best article I've ever read on leadership is the NILIF Program by Deb McKean. I will post it below.

:thumbup: I agree with this. I had fear and territorial aggression problems in my doxie. The NILF program did wonders. I also learned to change MY behavior. The way you communicate is a huge deal when training your dog. I learned that my behavior was actually enabling her aggression or rather feeding it. Now I touch her back (up towards her neck) and I can whisper commands in a deep low voice to her and you can bet she does exactly what I tell her. This is a huge deal if you knew how she was before. I had to chuckle when my in-laws came and complemented how well behaved she was. She wasn't always that way! LOL. Sorry, I digressed a little :D. It is just very hard to overcome fear aggression and it's great I was able to control her behavior.

dcelmo 02-24-2007 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstYorkie (Post 971380)
dcelmo,

According to the trainers that I've talked to, it's highly unlikely that "alpha-rolling" Chewie is going to teach him not to guard his food. There are better ways. Here is a link to an article that outlines the procedure that I used with Joey. It's worked extremely well for us!
http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti...ctguarding.htm

Thank you for the link. There are some good points in it and I will surely try them. I don't understand Chewie's problem, I have had him since birth and he has never had to fight or wait for food, but has always showed aggression toward another dog. Even if he just "thinks" food is involved he will jump on my other dog. Sometimes he doesn't even need a reason to make Karma cry. I love both my dogs and just want them to get along. They do 80% of the time and seem to play real well. Thank you again for the help!
Debbie:animal36

FirstYorkie 02-25-2007 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcelmo (Post 972885)
I don't understand Chewie's problem, I have had him since birth and he has never had to fight or wait for food..

Food guarding is an instinctual behavior in dogs. If they sat patiently in the wild waiting for their turn to eat, they'd starve to death. As a result, it is a very common problem. The good news is that it normally responds well to intervention.

Here are a couple more good articles on food-guarding. I hope they help.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Con...=1&SourceID=47
http://k9deb.com/foodguar.htm

kendyla 02-25-2007 10:09 AM

Alpha Dog
 
Thanks for the article... I will try it! I have 2 young females that have recently begun to fight! It is all about having attention! I am really concerned that if I can't stop this behavior I may need to find a home for one... I really dont want to do that... We love all our babies!


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