Dog you own a big dog....and how many years did you teach dog class & what type did you teach...

I believe that you have made it your personal mission to discredit Cesar Milan. When a person becomes overly passionate, they loose their ability to be objective.

Any training method can cause negative results if it is done incorrectly. So other people using Cesar's methods with bad results, does not prove that Cesar's method are bad. Cesar himself gets good results without abuse or physical punishment.

Touching a dog and saying shhhhhhhht is by no means abusive. The methods he uses for vicious dogs ar totally different. When the dog bites the owner, or the trainer, physical dominance is the only recourse. That is common sense. Most traing books do not address this issue.

I have used his methods and they work for my dogs. That is proof enough for me. I have also used other methods that have worked well.

I am curently reading a book written by Thomas Knott. He does not believe in giving food as a reward. He believes that praise and affection are the only rewards needed. Since I have never been fond of bribing a child or an animal, I think I will find his training methods agreeable to my own beliefs.

This, however does not mean that I think methods that reccomends food as a reward are ineffective.

You are on a mission to discredit Cesar Milan, you said that yourself. I believe his results are all the proof that he needs.

I also believe there are other methods that are just as effective, for the well balanced dogs. However, for an unbalanced dog, in an environment where the dog runs the house, no method is going to work. This is the problem that Cesar specializes in, correcting the people.

That is the only thing that Cesar claims. He fixes the people, once that is done, any training method will work if done correctly, and will also produce negative results if done incorrectly.

I have read both of those articles, and I believe that you have the wrong idea of what Cesar Milan teaches. He does not believe in physical force or rolling a dog onto it's back to show dominance. He only forces a dog down, as a consequence of biting. A dog that bites cannot be trained by conventional methods.

In fact what I got out of those articles pretty much agree with what Cesar teaches. He says that size has nothing to do with who is the pack leader, it is all psycological. It is the one who stands their ground and does not allow another to push him around. He likens it to the high school popular kid that is very standoffish and everyone flocks around trying to be in their favor, not to a bully who rules by force. Those who are agressive and forcefull are unbalanced.

He only uses force on what he terms as "Red Zone Dogs", and those he takes back to his pack to let the other dogs teach them proper pack behavior. But those are the exception, not the rule.

I am interested in hearing how Pat Miller advocates that a vicious dog should be handled.

Counter conditioning, desensitization and behavior modification can be used on dogs that bite. You can't say he doesn't believe in forcing a dog down except in this situation or that. Forcing a dog down (ESPECIALLY a fearful biter) is not a good option. It makes them more fearful or makes them think they need to bite HARDER next time.

Choke chains are physical force.

Not having access to the recent new episodes, just watching ONE clip on Cesar's site - the one with Brady and the pool - you can see how stressed the dog is. His tail is down, he is panting (I bet not because he's hot) and he's whining. If Loki's trainer were teaching her dog not to jump in the pool the dog would be sitting politely but eagerly watching her, tail up and wagging, awaiting her command to jump in the pool. He forced that dog to submit to him, saying "The more they shake, they can only shake for so long and then they go into the peaceful state." I believe that's called flooding and it's not "peaceful" It's a dog's version of crying uncle - saying "I give up". And that dog looked like he went from loving the pool to being afraid of it, just based on his body language. I don't even have a trained eye and I picked up stress signals. At the very least he was extremely confused.

He also used flooding on Nuno the Chi and on a Doxie. (Also force.) He also used a choke chain on a doxie! And what is with the clip of the lady dragging the Basset across the street?? I hope that was a before, not an after! I'm wondering how these dogs can trust their owners after any of this?

Just watching those clips makes me sick to my stomach.

The first option for anyone with a "vicious" dog should be immediately meeting with an animal behaviorist to determine the problem, probably after ruling out any medical reason. They should not be handling it on their own. Otherwise, according to one of her books, you manage the behavior and work on modifying the behavior. If you really are interested, join the Peaceable Paws Yahoo! Group. (It's a fast moving email list with a lot of professional trainers, but anyone is welcome to join. They have a lot to share.) All of the positive training books I've read say pretty much the same thing. Determine cause of behavior and work hard to modify it. Using conditioning you can teach your dog that "bad" things are really "good" things. There's a lot more to it, which is why I have so many books. And it takes a long time. There are no quick fixes, despite what you see on TV.

I sorry I don't argee with you...do you own a dog that weights over 100 pounds....I just started to use the prong choke, I have only had to pull on it twice in the past week, Max already knows....I love my dogs more than anything, and if your trying to tell me I am cruel...I am sorry I am not!

Did you try an Easy Walk or Sense-ible harness? I don't have a big dog, but I walk my neighbor's 100 pound lab mix occasionally and he about pulled my arm off until I bought him a harness and taught him how to walk on it.

Oh, and my trainer has labs and they all not only don't use choke collars but they walk, and heel, OFF leash. We learned how in class. All the big dogs did it too.

I will not get into a debate with you, but for the record I have 7 friends that are professional trainers, 4 that have published books, so I have there advice to go on...Max walks on a regular collar in our subdivision...but when we are out in public place, I put it on him because he was still pulling and wanting to chase cats...for his welfare of not getting ran over in the streets or worse..the vet, breeder and trainers have all suggest the prong choke..& when they are in training the have to wear a regular choke...I not talking basic obedience either...

Cesar Milan never says there are quick fixes for vicious dogs. You said to work on the problem. OK how. What do you do if your 120 pound dog has calimed the sofa and and bites at you if you try to make him get off.

You have not given any specific examples. Just generalizations. What if my dog does not fit into your box.

Cesar corrects the people. Once the people are corrected they can train the dog by any method they choose.

Until you have personally watched your trainer deal with a behavior problem, you really don't know how they would deal with it or how the animal would react. These are not simple problems with simple fixes. And they don't all react in textbook fashion.

Lets take your trainer and put her in front of a camera with a vicious dog and see how she deals with it and how tail wagging friendly the dog is.

What you read in a book, and what happens in reality are not always the same.

There is a HUGE difference between theory and practic, and between being educated and intelligent. Educated people come up with theories, Intelligent people are able to take a theory and put it into practice.

It would be foolish and dangerous to do otherwise.

There are many dogs that do that. It prove nothing because you do not know how they were trained, and not every dog fits neatly into the box.

It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without a choke or prong collar.

These dogs - boxers, labs, etc. ALL went from pulling with all their might to walking on a loose leash on a collar with distractions by the end of the 8 week class. No choke collars involved. I do know how they were trained, I was in class with them.

Were they aggressive towards other dogs and people?

Thats the whole point, they were in class, Max isn't aggressive but when you walking on a street or in a crowd of people or around 30 to 50 different dogs that are not little dogs, you just have to make sure they are under control, I can let Max run off lease and he comes to me no problem, but when we are in public dogs act totally different, there are so many different distractions that you can't plan on and being only 4 1/2 months old he wouldn't hurt any one but I don't want him attacked because a dog that young attacked will become aggressive from fear. Lets put it this way when I am out with Lexie or Peanut, I expect other people to have there bigger dogs under control, I wouldn't want a dog jumping on my little dogs just because they are on a regular collar and pulling there owner, when you are being pulled and the dog has the lead, you don't have to much control of him...You take those dogs that are 8 weeks trained and put a live animal like a rabbit, cat or squirrel in the yard and you can tell me that they will not try to chase them. and on a regular collar when they start to run or the owner jerks them back you are doing more damage to the throat then you will do with just on pull on a prong collar..Like I said now I don't even have to pull on Max's anymore he knows, but when we are in public place I will not take the chance, so I will always put his prong on, until we are completely done with the Schutzhund and he is titled..The biggest thing is respect..I respect Max so much not to let him get hurt by himself or other animals and he respects me to be his protector...

everything becomes a debate !

Boy are you not kidding!!!:) I am just trying to make the best healthy & sound dog I can, if the way I am training upsets some, then I am sorry, I know my dog the best and thats what I am trying to do...everyone has there opinions, It the same way with rearing children, everyone is alway going to disagree. I just want to make sure if you meet me out you will see and say, that Max is happy, healthy, and well minded where he is safe and happy, not a aggressive, threat to him or you....:rolleyes:

We do not have a Yorkie yet (but goodness, patience is difficult when waiting for a new family member!), but the method we practice with out beagle is positive reinforcement, and also this new technique we've read up on called "The Third Way". We've just started using this technique and it's really nice! We're practicing.

Here is an excerpt of "The Third Way" method from http://www.unleashyourself.biz :

"THE THIRD WAY is about motivating your dog to perform the desired behaviors on a voluntary basis. We do not make the dog do anything. Instead, we teach you to create situations in which your dog chooses to perform the desired behaviors. Rather than coerce or arouse your dog, we focus on giving your dog information and reinforcing your dog for being calm and focused, even in the presence of distractions. This results in better trained, more reliable dogs and better dog/owner relationships. THE THIRD WAY eliminates the problems caused by using suppression, arousal or luring to make a dog perform.


A dog has to be doing the desired response in order for it to become voluntary


They have to be performing that response and not be lured into it. This is why we do not use lure training. Lure training doesn't allow for habits to happen. Lure training teaches the dog to get into the habit of following the food; it doesn¹t get them into the habit of performing the behavior. It is not as effective as THE THIRD WAY."

The Dog Whisper
 

Caesar Milan had an episode on last week that had Yorkies. I did not see him use a collar on the dogs at all but I did get up at one point to take "Cozy" out. I like his techique and have a friend that used him for her Shepard. Her Shepard was nuts before and had even attacked other dogs in the home. The one dog that her dog attacked was in puppy ICU for two months. Her dog is so sweet and well behaved now. But he is not for everyone.

Debates can be very enlightening as long as it remains civil. I love a good argument with a worthy opponant. I should have been in debate.

I'm Actually enjoying the whole thing, mainly because I don't really care one way or another. I just want to know why Erin feels so strongly against Cesar Milan, when she really hasn't watched him enough to make a judgement.

I like his ability to change a dogs behavior just by educating the people on how dog packs work. As for training, I use a variety of methods, whatever works. I am interesting in loooking into the method that Whirlgirl mentioned. I've never heard of it. But if it works, hey I'm game for anything.

Right now we are working on down, that is a hard one, but the method I'm trying is one I had never heard about before. So we'll see.

Jeanie,
First of all, how am I not being civil? Second, there is no way that you "don't really care one way or another" or you wouldn't continue this and argue with me on every thread. I just try to give my best advice and let you give your nonsense about a puppy doing puppy things because he doesn't respect them. I just hope my advice helps the person out.

The problem is that the research does not agree with what he says and does. So he is "educating" people incorrectly. The other problem is that I absolutely DO NOT agree with his methods. (The "bite your dog with your hand like a mouth" thing is ridiculous. Dogs KNOW we are not dogs. Some viewer is going to get their hand bitten if they keep that up.) You have to understand that these are OLD methods that most trainers do not follow any more. That is why positive trainers dislike him so much - they have come so far in helping dogs and the Cesar makes it "cool" to intimidate your dog. Why would you indimidate your dog into doing something rather than simply asking him? And if you don't believe that is what he is doing, then all I can ask you to do is your own further research because you will not believe just me saying it.

I have seen about 3 episodes. I choose not to see more because they make me sick. He uses flooding and other techniques that I consider to be cruel. I don't know how you can possibly expect me to like a show where the dogs physically show how stressed they are and Cesar is doing terrible things to them. I'm sorry but I suppose we will never agree. I have posted many different articles and book references to support my opinion. Others have posted similar things, saying they also dislike Cesar but you continue to attack me personally. You have posted nothing to back up your claim, you simply want to accuse me of being wrong. (I stopped posting over a day ago and you continue to try to provoke me.) Why should I continue to argue my point? I'm sure that no one else is reading this thread and gaining much from it any more. If I'm going to get attacked on every thread for giving positive training advice and pointing out obvious holes in Cesar's methods when they are suggested, I'm not going to post here any more.

If you *really* are interested in both sides, READ Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash. It's not a "how-to" training book. It's a book about how to understand your dog better. That book belongs on every dog owner's book shelf.

I'm sure you'll have the last word, so go ahead...

Every dog is different
 

I've been reading this thread and the thread abut choke collars with great interest. Max is now 4 months old and my trainer, who I do trust, last week said that we have to put him on a choke collar, but just for training, because he has taken up the position of dominance in the house I had already started feeling that way. He won't eat if he doesn't exactly like his food, which I've changed about 5 times and he has begun going all over the house after a very good start with the paper. (I now have about 5 wee wee pads all over the house and he goes on the rug). He was really into the pad and the treats and then reverted. He has a very strong pesonality, which I love about him, but so do I. I think he and I are going to have to work out many compromises as we learn how to deal with each other.

As a high schol teacher of "urban youth", as they say in the movies, I have learned that there are infinite paths to heaven. Each child is an individual, as is each dog, and each has to be treated in his own special way. It is a process, You can learn some things from books - ideas at best - but not entire training ways. And...yes, your students have to be trained to behave properly in class, mostly because that sets them up for how to properly behave at work, in life, etc. I have found that I use a combination of who I am, who the child, or, in this case, dog, is, as well as what behaviors I absolutely must get from them. I really don't care about all of their behaviors, so I just let them be and concentrate on what I feel is essential.

However, at the end of the day, a good teacher MUST be the dominant one in the classroom. This is more for the safety of all of her children than for any other reason. For example, if I yell "Line up right now, there's a fire drill," they absolutely have to get that I am totally the "pack leader," no questions asked. In this sense, I love Cesar Millan's philosophy and I do agree with it. The ways that he carries out this philososphy may not be your cup of tea, but you don't have to do anything his way. I'm only suggesting, again from my experience as a classroom teacher, that there must be a pack leader who controls the pack in the way he or she's most comfortable. I love my students and my students love me, and for many, I am their favorite teacher, but they always tell the new ones not to mess with me and they they must do it my way in the end. They understand this, don't mind it at all, and even feel safer around me, because they know I'm there for them.

Now, if I can only learn to apply my own knowledge to this little 4 1/2 pound tyrant, Max, who I absolutely adore. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy!

Judy

Treats and A LOT of praise have worked for me so far. Also, before you give him his food, make him earn it by doing a command or trick and then reward him with his food.

Clicker Training and other positive methods for us.
Pro's - it works, it's fun for both dog and handler
Con's - there are none that I am aware of
Here is a link to some (poorly photographed) video of Joey. It needs to be updated; he's much better at some of these things than he was when I taped him:
http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?use...cdate=20060121
Actually, that's a myth. Dogs who are clicker trained correctly will respond to commands in the absence of treats. However, clicker trainers generally choose a high rate of reinforcement. This may be done with whatever the dog sees as rewarding - food, a game of tug or fetch, praise and/or physcial affection, etc, etc. When Joey and I are at the park, correct responses to cues are best rewarded with the command "go see" - his chance to go sniff to his heart's content.
You will note in the above videos that Joey *is* rewarded with food treats (pieces of his kibble). I personally believe in paying for a job well-done. I, for one, wouldn't work at my best at a job that didn't pay me (granted, sometimes that payment isn't in the form of money but is instead in good feelings about myself - ie for volunteer work).
Click for Joy by Melissa C. Alexander
Culture Clash By Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot The Dog By Karen Pryor
Bones Would Rain From The Sky: Deepening Our Relationship With Dogs
By Suzanne Clothier
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison
Calming Signals: On Talking Terms With Dogs By Turid Rugaas
Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You By Turid Rugaas
Power Of Positive Dog Training By Pat Miller
The Other End Of The Leash By Dr. Patricia Mcconnell
Mine! by Jean Donaldson

I agree 100%, Judy, that the teacher must be seen as the "leader".

But, do you accomplish that by physical domination and force? I expect not. I expect that you accomplish this by earning your students respect, by being fair, by giving clear guidance, and by controlling the resources. I don't know you but I bet you rarely use physical dominance and I bet you rarely use positive punishment (aversives). I expect you use alot of praise and when you have to "get serious", your discipline involves removal of the goodies (time out away from the group, lost recess, etc) rather than using aversives.

There is a difference between being a leader and being dominant.

Oh, Judy, one more thing. Have you questioned your trainer about the safety of using a choke collar in a breed that is prone to tracheal collapse?

Actually, I agree with you.

I would change your wording a little though. How about this: "It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without using a method to control him." Choke or prong collars aren't mandatory. Gentle leaders and no-pull harnesses are equally effective.

The question I have, though, is why take a large, untrained dog out into public in the first place? Why not train the dog? It can be done, you know. And, it can be done using positive methods.