I had the same problem with Annie peeing in her crate. I did some reading up on the problem. And did learn that the problem was the size of her crate. I got a much smaller crate. One where all she could so was get up turn around and that's it. The problem with the big ones is that they will just pee in one spot and sleep in a dry spot.

Seemed to solve the problem.

Well said!!! :thumbup: :thumbup:

I'm in a similar situation. My puppy is 5 months old. Do you think that at 5 months she should be able to go all night without peeing? I too have a large crate that is big enough for a bed and a pad. Would probably be big enough to consider it a little play den. She goes on the pad during the night. After reading this, I wonder if it would be better to put her in a smaller crate at night to teach her to hold it. I don't think she is learning to hold it being in the crate with the pee pad. I set this crate with the pee pad up because I was tired of giving her baths everyday because she was peeing in the small crate and then stepping and laying in it and smelled like pee, and by the way it has helped that but like I said, I do want her to learn to have some bladder control. If I started putting her in the small crate at night to learn how to hold it, would you suggest that I put her in a play pen during the day while I'm at work with a pee pad? or put her in the small crate during the day also and come home for work on my lunch to let her out? I could come home after about 4 hours and then she would have to go back in for another about 4 hours until I got home. That feels like alot of time in that small crate in a 24 hour period. BTW, ideally I would like to train her to hold it and go only outside. It is sooo hard to know the right thing to do!! I'm thankful for this discussion board because my husband is sick of me talking about it and he won't offer me any advise anymore!!

I am going to tell you what I did. But there will be some people on this board that will absolute disagree with it. But I went against the majority on this board and followed the advise of a "no nonsense" dog behavioralist.

#1 rule - put away the pee pads - just "say NO!" No using pee pads, just strictly outside train.
#2 - crate them while at work, but make the crate too small to do anything but lay down in it. (I would put a toy or kong in there with Millie to keep her occupied) I was away at work for about 9 hours. Millie held her potty the entire time, no mistakes starting at 14 wks old. But I would not go longer than 9 hours, so you need to come straight home, no side trips, in the begining.
#3 - crate during the night for bedtime too! (but i would take her out on potty breaks at night, if she whined).
#4 - absolutely no food or water during the day while in the crate. (It was not cruel, no matter what anybody says. She did just fine!)
#5 - When I came home from work I would make sure to keep her outside for excerise and potty for a while. In the begining when she was younger, she would have to potty a least 3 times before we came back in the house. For some reason she did not let it out all at one time.

I had her crate in an x-pen that was over a rug. I would feed her in there and I put a bed and her toys in the x-pen. Eventually she viewed the x-pen as an extention of her crate or "den" area. this was important, because she learned NOT to potty in her "den". therefore, eventually I was able to keep her out of the crate and leave her in the x-pen during the day and she would not potty in it, either. she would hold it.

But as good as she was to hold it during the day, when we were home, she still had to be watched like a hawk and taken out to go potty every hour to 1 and 1/2 hour, if she was out of the x-pen. So while crating helped for me during the work day and when we left her at home while we performed errands and stuff, it did not eliminate the need to do some real potty training excerises when were at home.

But I never once used a pee pad, and she was trained to go outside from the day that I got her. But be prepared to stand in the rain and storm with the puppy on a leash, because they are not keen on the idea, at first.

As much as Millie hated the get wet in the rain, she will go out now and do her business rain or shine. She just does it faster if it's raining. :D

I hope that helps.

Oh yes, I forgot to say, she is 100% housebroken. She is one year old and has been housebroken since about 5 -6 months old.

Impressive!
 

That is indeed a no-nonsense approach, (especially the water deprivation for 9 hours) but if your pup was completely housetrained at 6 months, I am incredibly jealous! Nicely done! :p

I appreciate your advice. Did your puppy ever go potty in the crate in the beginning? That is the frustrating part. I know the crate is not too big--it is the smallest that they sell and she really doesn't have that much room in there. I just don't think she is able to hold it yet for whatever reason. I think she has never learned to hold it. Unfortunately, she was in a pet store kennel/cage and they peed and pooped in the cage. I think that is all she knows yet. Do you think if I just keep giving her daily baths :( and try to clean the crate out real good that she will eventually stop going in there?

You know the funny thing about this whole thing is that I also have a shih tzu and I tried to train him to pee pads etc too and I was not successful training him until I gave up on all that and just let him go potty outside. That is what he wanted from the beginning. He is very reliable and was a breeze to train once I gave up on all of this stuff. Now here I am again trying to train my yorkie to pee pads. I guess because she is so small I thought that it was the only fair thing to do. I wonder how many yorkie owners on here have only OUTSIDE trained yorkies.

This is the way I looked at it, it was no more deprivation then taking up the water dish at 8pm until morning as a lot of folks on here do. Depending on when you wake up in the morning it could be anywhere from 9 - 10 hours without water.

I think I was lucky that way, but Millie never did soil her crate. And I know they say that dogs that are used to soiling in their crates (like yours because of the pet store situation) are harder to crate train, if not impossible. Because once they have acclimated to being in their feces and urine, it is very difficult to "untrain" them.

When I brought Millie home at 12 wks old she was only 1 lbs and 11 oz. So she was pretty small too. But she did fine with outside training. I also got the smallest crate, but I still had to fill it up with a box to make it even smaller for her little body. So I would say that the box filled the crate 2/3 up and Millie was left with only 1/3 of the crate for her use.

I don't know how to help you with your situation, other than to determine the longest she can be in the crate without potty, and work at that starting point. In other words, if she is ok in the crate for 2 hours (after she does her business) then keep her in the crate for 2 hour intervals, then take her out. I am not sure how that is going to help you while at work.

You may have to work with the pee pad (but only while at work) when you are home, take the thing away and work with her on going outside. When she gets older, you can start making the pee pad area smaller and smaller until, there is barely any left and see if she will hold the pee because there will no place for her to go. Or she may decide on her own, after she starts to perfer going outside, to stop using the pee pad herself.

Oh I forgot to tell you, that the dog behaviorist, told me that if a dog does go in the crate, which is against it's natural instinct, it may be because they are stressed out in being left alone all day, etc. So she told me if that ever happened with Millie to use a Phermone diffuser to get her calm and happy. I never did have to use it.

However, I have read on this forum that some say the phermone diffuser does not work, but I cannot say from any experience.

Wow, if crate training is impossible because that natural instinct to not soil their space is lost--what is a person to do to train them? I wish someone had accomplished this same situation and had some advice for me.

I feel like I got to get this figured out soon or I'll just be confusing the poor little girl.

Please don't despair, I am not saying it's impossible just harder! But you are right I am not real sure what the steps should be for this situation. Could you call petsmart or other trainers in your area to see if they have any suggestions?

One suggestion that was given to me and I did do this with Millie. Throw food in the crate on their towel or pillow, what ever is on the floor of the crate. Make it small crumbs of food. Let the puppy eat the food from the crate and do this several times. You can even put peanut butter or spreadable cheese on the walls of the crate. Leave the door open and let her go in there on her own.

Most dogs will not void or have a bm where they eat! so if they can smell the food in their pillows and walls of crate, they will understand this to be their "eating area" as well as their sleeping area. So this may stop her from doing her business in the crate. But make sure you are throwing the food in there, not placing it in a bowl in there. The food smells need to be in their blankets and pillows. you may have to do this several times over a period of a few days to get good results.

I used this technique on Millie "just because". I was trying to up the odds of success.

Also are you using a cage type crate or a walled crate. The dog behavioralist told me to use the walled crates, only. I think it's because it simulates a "den" better. The enclosure makes them feel safe.

I am using the plastic wall type crate for the small one. When I was using the large crate that I set up with a pee pad and bed that was a wire type. I also have an exercise pen that I have tried with pee pads. My husband says--if he could have the money that I've spent on kennels and crates for the dogs..... oh well......I keep experimenting to try to find something that will work, but that is part of my concern. I don't want to keep changing the rules for Mandi or she will just be getting more and more confused. I'm not sure if there are any dog behaviorists around here. I have never heard of one. The food idea is a great one. I like the idea of spreading some on the walls. I put a small sheepskin in the crate with her to lay on but I think what was happening is she would pee on that and then kick it into the back of the crate. I have read people saying not to put bedding in there so they don't do this. One thing about the bedding though is she wouldn't have to lay in it and didn't smell so bad and didn't need quite so many baths--I just worry that I again lost the purpose of the teaching if she is peeing on this and kicking it into the back.

Just a thought--what if I put her in the larger wire type crate that has the pee pad and bedding in it during the day when I'm at work and put her in the small crate when I'm home and during the night in an attempt to try to teach her to hold it. Do you think this would confuse her by having 2 different pens? I could always feed her in the small crate so she would establish this as a place to eat. Or do you think it would be better to set up a playpen and put the small crate right in the exercise pen during the day when I'm at work and put pee pads in the exercise pen?

sorry for all the questions! I sure appreciate your help. :)