Well that is an intresting site thanks for sharing it. Will have a good look around there. I actually liked his book although not straight up clicker it was a ton to offer and as I am a crossover trainer it was a good read to help make sence of a few things.
If You like The other end of the leash try Bones Would Rain. very good way left of the normal but good.

Joy

I didn't even look at the rest of the site, I just looked to see what some positive trainers said about Cesar. Paul Owen's book is on my list to read and I just added that book too, thanks for the suggestion! Luckily I can get most of these at my Library but so far I've only read two of the 15 on my list. I hope to finish Positive Dog Training tomorrow.

I only use positive training as does Ceasar Millan. I think he has to use some more aggressive techhniques on what he calls "red zone" cases in which the dog just wants to "kill". But, even then, he mostly uses his calm assertive attitude as his main tool as well as physical and psychological activities. There is a lot of info about his philosophy on the website. He has gotten results with dogs that have been to many trainers and all have said the dog has to be put down. He has saved the lives of many dogs with his "rehabilitation" and all of his "pack" are dogs he has rescued. I think he has like thirty or so and he uses them to help rehabilitate other dogs. They learn from the pack. It is part of their socialization especially when they are aggressive toward other dogs.

It is fascinating to watch him work.

I am a big fan of clicker training which I have used since my Westie was a pup. I have never seen Caesar Millan use a clicker but all of his methods are positive. He doesn't use anything negative or harmful.

I am absolutely against making a dog behave out of fear as that never works just as it doesn't work on children or people.

I am always learning a lot and will definitly read these books you've recommended. :)

Oh My Goodness I missed this.
Glad you pointed it out and well.
I think I will leave it at this.
Thanks for the info. I will be passing this on to places in need of higher learning.
I am sitting here just shaking after reading the following.
Joy



Paul Owens is often asked the following question:

You indicate that you are not affiliated with the National Geographic program, "The Dog Whisperer” which features Cesar Millan . I've never seen him use inappropriate or violent techniques with animals so why are you distancing yourself from him?

The following is Paul's response:

"The methods demonstrated by Mr. Millan include the use of choke collars, jerking, hitting, pinning to the ground, etc. He has stated that any method is okay to use as long as it works. He uses physical punishment and “flooding” in order to suppress a dog's behavior. Physical punishment involves applying a physical aversive to reduce the probability of the behavior continuing. “Flooding” refers to physically forcing a dog into an overwhelming situation he or she is afraid of until the dog “shuts down” or the behavior is suppressed.

Using negative methods with fearful or aggressive dogs is dangerous (as demonstrated on the program) and unnecessary. Most importantly, these methods are not the most effective in modifying problematic behaviors. And they are certainly not very easy on the dogs. Behavioral science has shown that suppressing behavior, especially through physical force or the threat of force, does nothing to bring confidence to a fearful dog or calm an aggressive dog, it only suppresses that behavior (out of fear) in that particular situation.

Most of the physical-force methods demonstrated on this program are in contrast to the positive behavior modification programs used by professional trainers around the world, including the leading veterinary schools of behavior at University of Pennsylvania, Tufts University, Cornell, University of California at Davis, and many others. They have found negative training to be unsafe, unnecessary and ineffective in the long run. Thirty years ago I used most of the negative methods shown on the National Geographic program and became skilled in both positive and negative training. In the past 15 years, along with other professionals and the leading animal behavioral scientists at the institutions referenced above, I have abandoned negative training, finding it to be less effective and certainly not as kind as positive training. I believe positive training is easier and more effective with even the most aggressive or fearful dog, as well as being less stressful for the human.

I recommend that you interview trainers and find out the methods he or she uses before hiring him or her. I further recommend getting referrals and watching the trainer in action. Only then can you can make an informed decision and choose for yourself the methods you will ultimately use."

That was very interesting to read and that came from the REAL "Dog Whisperer". I have never looked at Cesar Millan in that way but you have opened my eyes. He isn't the man that I thought he was.

I want to apologize to everyone as I just started the thread with a article that I had READ. It was for information purposes only and not my views or opinion on the subject - for people to take from it what they wanted. I thought people would enjoy reading it.

I had no earthly idea that I had opened a "can of worms" and would set people off to a wild debate.

It's too bad people can't just read an article and let it go whether they agree with it or not.

Why do people have to make such a big ta-do over things to prove whether they are right or wrong?

Everyone has their own opinion of everything.

Whether it's right or wrong, everyone has their own viewpoint on things.

I'm about ready to leave YT because of this! I'm another newbie about to leave!*!

How many before me have left because of this same reason???

I think that I'll be a little more careful in the future. Did you notice that I backed out and left others to carry on their debate? I wanted NO part of it!

I'm actually sorry that I posted the article!

Oh Muffies mom, don't feel that way!People can take some, all or nothing of what they read on here. There is nothing to apologize for and certainly no reason for you to leave. You passed on an interesting bit of reading you wanted to share, you didn't start or cause any debate. Thank you for your effort on it:).

I'm so used to helping people. That is part of who I am! I definitely am not used to what I see here on YT. It's not my way!

Don't be sorry about posting the article. I have enjoyed reading all the posts. It is interesting to read different view points. Some things work for me with one dog and then I have to use a different approach with another dog. I rescued a Dalmation/Terrier cross and let me tell you it was way different training him than our little Yorkie. Our Yorkie is way easier.

When you post or I post it is read. It is commented on and thought about.
It is here to learn from.
If it is bad info those of us in the know must set it right as gentley as possible.
For me and I am speaking of only me, bad info reprensts a dog that could get hurt by it.
I speak from experince in this as I listened to and trained with an old time trainer that was and is well respected in our area. I know no better.
What the fall out of this is will last my girl a life time.

This was not intended to be a debat or a blood bath but a discussion, to finnally get it out there that what one see and hears on TV or reads does not always mean they are right and know what they are talking about.
I just took my girl to someone other think is the best in aggression and well we walked out of class it got rough and I walked, I would not recomend taking a class form her but I say read the books and edite well.

A whole lot of learning just happened and your post was the start of more to come. Do not leave, instead be proud you might have just made a difference in one dogs life.
That is what this place at least is all about for me.

Joy

It might be easy for some people but with my serious health conditions and having SIX aneurysms on the brain I definitely do not need the stress.

I'll think twice before I post again - so much for trying to help people.

It might be easier if you explained WHY you feel this way. What happened to your little girl?

Thanks & God bless you all.

I am sorry about your health. Hope it improves.
As far as helping ,you have. Just not the way you wanted with out a discussion on it. I love it if everyone just agree with what I posted.
But then no learning happens.
Why I feel the way I do about using violence of any kind with a dog.
They have a soul and a right to be treated with the resppect that any and all living things should have. They think at a level that most do not give them credit for.
Dogs get aggressive and misbehave cause we as humans mess them up for the most part.

As far as my girls histroy goes I am sure that most would rather not hear.
It take a long post.


Joy

Sad enough - there will be no improvement in my health problems. I just have to keep doing what the doctors tell me to do, take my medicine, eat healthy and exercise.

I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your little Yorkie. I don't believe in mistreating dogs either.

They are what we train them to be.

God bless you.

I think this is an important conversation to have. I'm only posting my opinion because I've done a lot of reading and I actively participate in positive training every week. I'm sorry if anyone is upset. This thread is not upsetting to me it is interesting. Yorkies are different than other dogs and I hope we can all share our training experiences.

I truly don't care about Cesar Millan. I didn't know who he was until a week ago. Next year it will be someone else. It's just frustrating to see because there are techniques out there that work and do not require physical force. I've read about what the experts in the positive training world have said about him and they say he does not use positive (reward based) training. I agree based on what I've seen. If people enjoy watching his TV show, that's great. It's entertainment. It's edited to look good. But, it's NOT postive training. If any of you have used the techniques he shows and they worked for you, that's fine. Please share. I'm eager to discuss it and share what I've done and what's worked for me, too.

So, maybe we need to start another thread but I would like to discuss specifics about training that all of you have done (not just seen on TV) and what has worked with your Yorkies. I mentioned earlier that Loki has issues with object posessiveness that we are working on. We are working on the drop (trade) and leave it commands but the problem comes in when he has something he is supposed to have, like his Kong, and he thinks I am going to take it. He can't be the only one with this type of issue. What have you all done about this?

Pop this part over to another thread and I have some thoughts.

As far as the rest of your post I have to agree.

Joy

I have no particular devotion to Caesar Millan but
I do not believe this. :confused:

I have watched almost every episode of the show and he has never used choke collars on the TV show, he does not "jerk" like I was taught to do back in the 70s when I first learned obedience training, he NEVER hits, and I have seen him gently put a dog who is attempting to attack on the ground...never harshly or in anger but only in self defense and defense of others. I have NEVER seen him use "physical punishment" or any kind unless you include lots of exercise to use up excess energy as "physical punishment".

Joy~ I think you should watch just a few episodes and I think you may change your mind about him. :)

IMO his approach is very positive as opposed to negative but I guess it may depend on your defintion of those terms. He obviously loves dogs and would never intentionally harm one.