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See mine hangs the moon too. You live life with your dogs as you are comfortable and they are too. I love to see your freind train those dogs are amazing. I am not a strict disciplinarain at all. We have rules and we follow them but our home is as casual as I can make it and still have my girl feel comfortable and safe. I got into training and the theory behind it and am looking into how to get my masters in behaviour not cause I wanted to but I had a baby in crises. This stuff I know is and was to keep her safe and healthy. Without it she be long time gone, both in her mind and on the face of this earth. Even my behavoiurist shakes her head at my girl and just how far we have come. In November we all thought she not be with us much longer but we did it. She going forward and is happy again. I truly wish I had never had to learn this that I do know as I have a healthy girl. Or I wish I know when I got her about all the bad ways to train before I unloaded them on her fraglie mind. I not trade her for anything and what she has taught me is well life changing but I would gladly take her pain for her any day. Joy |
Quote socal{I am agreement as well as to how important training is to the dog and the owner. I like your comment about it "doesn't mean you have to change their persoanlity" but can you imagine a dog who is forced to be the one in control?? That is a lot of stress for a small dog and I think they would all prefer that WE be the ones in control. I just think it is psychologically healthier for the dog for the human to assume the alpha position.} How do you FORCE a dog to be in control? Just asking, I don't feel in our situation anyone was forced to be anything. And I have to disagree with it since I can assure you Rio is not at all stressed, quite the contrary actually. He is a happy self assured little dog who may be a little bossy and opinionated but he is certainly not stressed. I am all for training but please do not assume that because a dog isn't obedience trained they are miserable and stressed either. What works for one dog or even most may very well not be what makes the world turn for another. |
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I put "On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals" on my list to buy next. Thanks a lot! |
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do the best for your dogs and we as owners are the only ones that know our dogs completely and how far we can go with them. |
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I do want to give kudos to those who have trained their dog and those who educate on it, it takes dedication and commitment to train any animal. I think for most dogs and people it is key to living together happily. Just not me and Rio :D (Joke) |
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I know you well enough from your posts Dawn to agree with everyone who praises you for the care and love you give all of your animals. I would never doubt that for a second. You and I have gone down this road before and we don't need to do it again as we simply do not agree in this area and that is okay with me. So, with all sincerity, I say ...Long Live Rio, the King!!! :) |
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http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27693 http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti....htm#dominance All these are training articles under dominance. the Dominance Myth, by Pamela Buitrago, (new 1/22/2005) "Drive" Theory, by Doug Johnson Hugging Your Dog, by Barry McDonald The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory, by Melissa Alexander -- revised edition Social Hierarchies, by Ian Dunbar The Macho Myth, by Ian Dunbar Why Can't a Dog Be More Like a Dog?, by Ian Dunbar Alpha and Dominance theroy and pack wolf stuff is old and even the guys that first did the study have stopped using it as it is not the correct way a dog works. I would love to chat more with you on this but off the board. Joy |
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And yes, we have gone down this road before and I really don't want to revisit it either. I have stated I was absolutly the one who failed but it works for us:). I never said it would work for everyone or even anyone else. In fact, I think it wouldn't and my personal opinion is everyone would do well to read the posts and take the advise of those here who are knowledgable in training.Remembering also that not all dogs respond to all training methods the same. They are still individuals. Joan said it best when she said we are the only ones who know our dogs and how far we can go with them. At 47 I think I know that Rio is not a human in a dog suit, the problem is he doesn't. :D |
There was so much good info on this thread. Thank you all for sharing. Bailey is an Alpha dog and it has been an interesting experience training him as a service and therapy dog. First time, I ever did it with an Alpha......I have to continue to read and stay one step ahead. |
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He is one of the premiere dog trainers right now, so I cannot imagine he would be teaching about these if they were scientifically proven to be outdated. I will read those books as I am very interested in learning more. Thanks Joy. :) |
AND, he has a new book coming out in April. You can find it on the web now. I preordered mine already. There is a nice write-up about him at this website: http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...whisperer.html |
Joy~ I just read the second article you posted the link to and I don't think what it says conflicts with what Caesar Millan teaches since he also asserts his ledership position throuhg calm assertiveness, not aggression or dominance. He is "alpha" but he does it in a non-violent, calm manner. Interesting reading. I am looking forward to learnong more. :thumbup: |
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The guys I quote are the leaders of the training world both here in North America and over seas. The guys I have learned with are the best of the best. Who I read pack PHD and masters and have been out there making clicker and postive work for the world and the dogs not just for thier piggy banks. That is my point right there he is teaching out dated stuff. This alpha is not right and dogs are dogs stuff is still newish. Calling himself Alhpa is to make it understandable to lay people. That in turn opens up the whole if Alpha is right that pitch a dog to the floor, hitting and use of a fly swatter to bring order is ok. It is not. The door to Alpha was to close. This new resaerch is easily available and easy to find and understand. I take my info form a multitude of places and from actually people that I train with face to face. Not just a show on TV. It will be the way of things hopefully sooner then later. Joy |
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I don't know much about Cesar Millan and I don't get the channel he is on but I did watch the clips that they have on the website. What I saw was disturbing and involved very little training. The dogs were not asked to do anything. How is the dog supposed to know what is expected of it? That is not training. Dogs want to please us and we need to teach them how to do that. Please take a look at this website - there is a quote from the man who wrote the original "Dog Whisperer" book and contrasts Cesar's methods with true positive training methods. http://www.naturespet.com/dogwhisperer.html The info that YorkieMum is giving is fantastic information. Please just take the time to read The Other End of the Leash or another book that discusses the behavior of dogs and the philosophy of positive dog training. The research IS there, I promise you that. |
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If You like The other end of the leash try Bones Would Rain. very good way left of the normal but good. Joy |
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I only use positive training as does Ceasar Millan. I think he has to use some more aggressive techhniques on what he calls "red zone" cases in which the dog just wants to "kill". But, even then, he mostly uses his calm assertive attitude as his main tool as well as physical and psychological activities. There is a lot of info about his philosophy on the website. He has gotten results with dogs that have been to many trainers and all have said the dog has to be put down. He has saved the lives of many dogs with his "rehabilitation" and all of his "pack" are dogs he has rescued. I think he has like thirty or so and he uses them to help rehabilitate other dogs. They learn from the pack. It is part of their socialization especially when they are aggressive toward other dogs. It is fascinating to watch him work. I am a big fan of clicker training which I have used since my Westie was a pup. I have never seen Caesar Millan use a clicker but all of his methods are positive. He doesn't use anything negative or harmful. I am absolutely against making a dog behave out of fear as that never works just as it doesn't work on children or people. I am always learning a lot and will definitly read these books you've recommended. :) |
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Glad you pointed it out and well. I think I will leave it at this. Thanks for the info. I will be passing this on to places in need of higher learning. I am sitting here just shaking after reading the following. Joy Paul Owens is often asked the following question: You indicate that you are not affiliated with the National Geographic program, "The Dog Whisperer” which features Cesar Millan . I've never seen him use inappropriate or violent techniques with animals so why are you distancing yourself from him? The following is Paul's response: "The methods demonstrated by Mr. Millan include the use of choke collars, jerking, hitting, pinning to the ground, etc. He has stated that any method is okay to use as long as it works. He uses physical punishment and “flooding” in order to suppress a dog's behavior. Physical punishment involves applying a physical aversive to reduce the probability of the behavior continuing. “Flooding” refers to physically forcing a dog into an overwhelming situation he or she is afraid of until the dog “shuts down” or the behavior is suppressed. Using negative methods with fearful or aggressive dogs is dangerous (as demonstrated on the program) and unnecessary. Most importantly, these methods are not the most effective in modifying problematic behaviors. And they are certainly not very easy on the dogs. Behavioral science has shown that suppressing behavior, especially through physical force or the threat of force, does nothing to bring confidence to a fearful dog or calm an aggressive dog, it only suppresses that behavior (out of fear) in that particular situation. Most of the physical-force methods demonstrated on this program are in contrast to the positive behavior modification programs used by professional trainers around the world, including the leading veterinary schools of behavior at University of Pennsylvania, Tufts University, Cornell, University of California at Davis, and many others. They have found negative training to be unsafe, unnecessary and ineffective in the long run. Thirty years ago I used most of the negative methods shown on the National Geographic program and became skilled in both positive and negative training. In the past 15 years, along with other professionals and the leading animal behavioral scientists at the institutions referenced above, I have abandoned negative training, finding it to be less effective and certainly not as kind as positive training. I believe positive training is easier and more effective with even the most aggressive or fearful dog, as well as being less stressful for the human. I recommend that you interview trainers and find out the methods he or she uses before hiring him or her. I further recommend getting referrals and watching the trainer in action. Only then can you can make an informed decision and choose for yourself the methods you will ultimately use." |
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I want to apologize to everyone as I just started the thread with a article that I had READ. It was for information purposes only and not my views or opinion on the subject - for people to take from it what they wanted. I thought people would enjoy reading it. I had no earthly idea that I had opened a "can of worms" and would set people off to a wild debate. It's too bad people can't just read an article and let it go whether they agree with it or not. Why do people have to make such a big ta-do over things to prove whether they are right or wrong? Everyone has their own opinion of everything. Whether it's right or wrong, everyone has their own viewpoint on things. I'm about ready to leave YT because of this! I'm another newbie about to leave!*! How many before me have left because of this same reason??? I think that I'll be a little more careful in the future. Did you notice that I backed out and left others to carry on their debate? I wanted NO part of it! I'm actually sorry that I posted the article! |
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Don't be sorry about posting the article. I have enjoyed reading all the posts. It is interesting to read different view points. Some things work for me with one dog and then I have to use a different approach with another dog. I rescued a Dalmation/Terrier cross and let me tell you it was way different training him than our little Yorkie. Our Yorkie is way easier. |
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It is here to learn from. If it is bad info those of us in the know must set it right as gentley as possible. For me and I am speaking of only me, bad info reprensts a dog that could get hurt by it. I speak from experince in this as I listened to and trained with an old time trainer that was and is well respected in our area. I know no better. What the fall out of this is will last my girl a life time. This was not intended to be a debat or a blood bath but a discussion, to finnally get it out there that what one see and hears on TV or reads does not always mean they are right and know what they are talking about. I just took my girl to someone other think is the best in aggression and well we walked out of class it got rough and I walked, I would not recomend taking a class form her but I say read the books and edite well. A whole lot of learning just happened and your post was the start of more to come. Do not leave, instead be proud you might have just made a difference in one dogs life. That is what this place at least is all about for me. Joy |
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I'll think twice before I post again - so much for trying to help people. It might be easier if you explained WHY you feel this way. What happened to your little girl? Thanks & God bless you all. |
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As far as helping ,you have. Just not the way you wanted with out a discussion on it. I love it if everyone just agree with what I posted. But then no learning happens. Why I feel the way I do about using violence of any kind with a dog. They have a soul and a right to be treated with the resppect that any and all living things should have. They think at a level that most do not give them credit for. Dogs get aggressive and misbehave cause we as humans mess them up for the most part. As far as my girls histroy goes I am sure that most would rather not hear. It take a long post. Joy |
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I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your little Yorkie. I don't believe in mistreating dogs either. They are what we train them to be. God bless you. |
I think this is an important conversation to have. I'm only posting my opinion because I've done a lot of reading and I actively participate in positive training every week. I'm sorry if anyone is upset. This thread is not upsetting to me it is interesting. Yorkies are different than other dogs and I hope we can all share our training experiences. I truly don't care about Cesar Millan. I didn't know who he was until a week ago. Next year it will be someone else. It's just frustrating to see because there are techniques out there that work and do not require physical force. I've read about what the experts in the positive training world have said about him and they say he does not use positive (reward based) training. I agree based on what I've seen. If people enjoy watching his TV show, that's great. It's entertainment. It's edited to look good. But, it's NOT postive training. If any of you have used the techniques he shows and they worked for you, that's fine. Please share. I'm eager to discuss it and share what I've done and what's worked for me, too. So, maybe we need to start another thread but I would like to discuss specifics about training that all of you have done (not just seen on TV) and what has worked with your Yorkies. I mentioned earlier that Loki has issues with object posessiveness that we are working on. We are working on the drop (trade) and leave it commands but the problem comes in when he has something he is supposed to have, like his Kong, and he thinks I am going to take it. He can't be the only one with this type of issue. What have you all done about this? |
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As far as the rest of your post I have to agree. Joy |
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I do not believe this. :confused: I have watched almost every episode of the show and he has never used choke collars on the TV show, he does not "jerk" like I was taught to do back in the 70s when I first learned obedience training, he NEVER hits, and I have seen him gently put a dog who is attempting to attack on the ground...never harshly or in anger but only in self defense and defense of others. I have NEVER seen him use "physical punishment" or any kind unless you include lots of exercise to use up excess energy as "physical punishment". Joy~ I think you should watch just a few episodes and I think you may change your mind about him. :) IMO his approach is very positive as opposed to negative but I guess it may depend on your defintion of those terms. He obviously loves dogs and would never intentionally harm one. |
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