Fighting
 

How do you handle a fight that breaks out between your dogs? Do you reach in and pull them apart?

Yes. Stand up, clap your hands saying "No!", walk right to them and step in between them or take a pillow or book to place in between them and then send them to their corners to cool off. Take one outside and get the other chasing a ball or something and then switch to take the other out and toss the ball for the first one. Keep them apart at least 15 mins. or longer if you can. Remain watchful once they resume companionship and be sure you have removed all toys, chewies and things they might be fighting over. Watch for body language that indicates trouble is brewing and speak sternly to stop the focusing and alerting behavior as soon as you see it. When the dog listens to you and resumes a normal body attitude, slip him/her a treat or give a little pat to mark that good response.

How come I seem to be the only one who comes out bleeding? This is from today's fight:
Attachment 388385

Hey Jeanie,
When watching the dog whisperer, he said that it's better to lay both dogs together when they fight. That way they'll go back to normal.
I've never witnessed a dog fight, or had to deal with one.
I'm just wondering if it has the same effect when doing your Technic.

Definitely don't do this. Alpha rolling is extremely outdated. Do a bit of googling on Cesar Millan.

I agree with yorkietalkjilly, great post!

Thank you Britster :)
So that is definitely a no no?

Girl, that looks painful! It's a price we pay when we have two terriers or two dogs trying to work out who's going to be alpha. I usually just walk in between two fighting dogs but I only usually interrupt this struggles for hierarchy if one is yelping, being injured by a biting into the underside of the exposed throat, eye, nose, ear or face or being constantly bossed by the other and is really troubled by it by showing symptoms of avoidance, cowing about or growling in fear. It's quite normal for dogs to have this struggle when one of them is a maturing puppy or really any dog trying a coup and they are settling the alpha issue so I usually just let them go. Fights sound loud and awful but usually are not and no serious biting is done unless one goes postal or a person sticks in an uncovered body part into all that intensity. Even the best behaved dog in the world may bite someone under those circumstances as they are usually in a red zone at the time and are not thinking at all.

I just walk in between as I usually have on jeans and I usually walk toward and into the one who seems to be the most intense dog - the one who is jerking about the most, often the one on top, repeatedly biting aggressively, growling loudly or has wrapped his paws around the other one. In big, powerful dogs, such as pitbulls or GSD/Rotties, lifting up on the collar or neck skin and pulling/twisting it and holding on until the breath is cut off is a good way to take the fight out of him for long enough to get him back and away from the other dog. Others grab the more intense dog by the back of the neck and lift up a bit or pull back(have to use much caution on tiny dogs with iffy tracheas) or use one of the tools such as a book or magazine lying about to stick into the face of the toughest dog.

If the skin is broken on that wound, watch for signs of infection and get seen by a doc. Hope you aren't hurting too badly tonight!

That looks so painful. I hate that you keep getting hurt. I'm so glad your boys aren't getting hurt, but your wounds look awful. It's amazing that your beautiful little Que Tee isn't terrified seeing her brothers fight. You have a confident and brave little girl. I'm so glad that people are here helping you with this. It hurts me to see how this is hurting you.

I would say so! :) And hope you don't think I was being snarky, I just re-read my post and it could've come across that way... I used to love CM, but fortunately learned about real dog training.

Check out this thread, http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...own-holly.html

Well, I do strongly disagree with that and I'll tell you why I don't like it in dealing with dogs. Alpha rolling is really a form of intimidation that an owner or trainer really doesn't need to use and with a big, powerful dog, leaning over it close enough to physically roll it over can put your vulnerable face and throat far too close to those dangerous teeth. Physically intimidating a dog is far from necessary when dealing with them in close quarters and if done by a psychologically weak person, the dog will sometimes leap up and bite as soon as it sees its way clear since the alpha rolling to expose its belly can really scare the occasional nervous or fearful dog and they may not react well to it at all. But dominating a dog isn't necessary to train it and domination of some dogs can break their trust in their owner or trainer. I just wouldn't do it as there are so many better ways to stop a dog fight and gain the respect of a dog. I'd just Google the terms "alpha rolling" and read some of the dog experts' and others' opinions on its use if I were you and gain some more input on the subject and then see what you think about it.

I didn't feel that you were being snarky ;)
I read the whole post, i've seen that clip before but never noticed what really happened. I also am/was a big fan of CM but after watching this and reading Jim's blog, I'm starting to doubt him.

Thanks Jeanie for the explanation and suggestion.
Reading some articles about alpha dogs made me feel bad! (I used to watch CM's show and kinda follow what he does)
This made me open my eyes, and this is why I love YT. Every day you learn something new!


Oow and Jacqueline, I hope you feel better and I hope the situation with your dogs get better :)

I was always told to never get between dogs if they are fighting!!! If they are going to live together they will work out the pecking order and live with it. I've never had dogs who didn't need some time to get adjusted to our household when they first joined us. It's awful to watch but one will assert themselves as the dominant and the rest will become submissive to the dominant one. Always works out that way that I've ever seen. If you step between dogs you WILL get bit! Need to let them work it out and they will.

That bite looks awful, My husband got bit breaking up a fight once and he cleaned it with hydrogen peroxide and then put antibiotic ointment and wrapped it for about a week and it healed.

My girls get into a brawl over toys...ugh and it scares me bc I am afraid that Daisy is going to hurt Pixie so I break up the fight and pick up the toys when it hap pens. My husband says let them got they are just making noise but since he got bit I think he has changed his opinion.

Never reach in to stop a dog fight! Spray with in the face with a squirt bottle!

I would grab one dog (the more aggressive of the 2/ the one who started the fight if known) by their rear legs and pull them upward so they are sort of hanging upside down- Front leg are still on the ground.

These boys have been together for four years. However, a new little girl joined their family in February. She isn't the instigator, but she is a feisty little one, and the dynamics have certainly changed. I've also heard it's best to let them work out their issues, but I'm certain it would be very difficult for me to watch my little loved ones fighting, and I know I'd be terrified of them hurting each other.

In Illinois if a dog bites anyone, the dog has to be put down or the owner loses their homeowners insurance. It happened to us when a friends dog bit my husband. It was a terrible experience for everyone!

I agree never reach in to stop a dog fight. It is the quickest way to get bit. If you are outside we use a hose and squirt them.

Don't feel bad and many people have watched CM over the years and read his books. CM is really good at reading dogs and such but some of his methods in the past were too dominant and not very heavy on the obedience training or positive-reinforcement-based methods for helping correct bad behavior. By teaching the dog to slowly learn to trust his owner and see him as an authority figure/pack leader through learning to do what he says in the training and reward process, you achieve a well-behaved dog that has fewer if any issues. Training a dog in obedience and prompt command response makes them willing partners who obey our commands and rarely keep having behavior problems. With many nervous dogs or smaller dogs, those old dominance methods can really intimidate a dog and take away his confidence and trust. I've watched a few of CM's newer shows and he's veered away from that kind of training in those shows so maybe he's at lease changing ways.

I've heard of spraying water also, but I'm not too sure it would stop the fighting. Lifting the little male, Wyatt, the instigator, like that sounds like a good idea. I was thinking of having Jackie keep Wyatt in his soft, natural Buddy Belt just until this gets worked out. She needs something to pull him away from his brother, Widget, who's twice his size. Widget, the alpha, is very mellow and is a sweetheart, but he is the toy hoarder. Que Tee is now able to play with toys, so the apple cart has definitely been upset for both Widget and Wyatt. Wyatt is definitely jealous, but he has always been jealous. . He's a little doll and a lover, too, but he's not easy-going and mellow like Widget. Sometimes they fight over toys and sometimes it could be over jealousy. Dominance is definitely an issue. A beautiful little hellion, Que Tee, joined their family in February who is very brave. She doesn't get involved, but all of this fighting isn't making her into a fearful puppy. However, Jackie's other female, Hannah, is a Coton de Tulear, and these fights are upsetting her. I hate to see my very dear friend both physically and emotionally hurt, and I also don't want any of her precious babies hurt, either. My heart is breaking for Jackie, someone I love dearly. She is an amazing mom to her babies.

To Jacqui
 

I am so very sorry you are having to deal with this! That bite looks very sore. First things first, take very good care of that bite. Dis-infect at least 2x a day! I like to use Traumeel as well for any cuts or burns. It is quite fantastic, but does not substitute as an antiseptic. We can get it in Canada now even in say a Shoppers Drugmart. All health food stores are likely to carry it.

Just a gentle reminder that your breeder should have some pertinent advice for you, give her a call. I think she is training until 2pm today, then back home and out again around 6-9pm for training.

I like all of Jillies' suggestions. I also want to make sure you keep your face out of the way of that biter! Also get very long oven mitts, if you intend to use the raise the legs. Lift about the knees and closer up to the groin area.

It is such a scarey thing watching two dogs we love fight!

My trainer might disagree with me, but at this point, there would be NO loose toys laying around on the floor. Each dog has to work for their toy.

Crate or Xpen and rotate. That is One male out with one female, and switch it over.
Play in house or out in the backyard one at a time - the other is observing tethered, well the working dog, works for their toy. Start with five minutes and build up.
Walk those two males on separate leads with halters. And discipline the aggressor very very firmly with halter/and lead correction. Make them sit 2feet apart and you are holding both leads one in each . If one makes a move to the other, NO, that is not a yelling NO but from your belly a deep firm NO.

I am not explaining this too well about firmess of your voice. Behind your voice the most important thing to have is an un-equivocal belief in your right to abhor this action, and YOU WILL NEVER EVER ALLOW this to happen again.

REpeat this mantra to yourself. Quite frankly YOU Are the ALPHA in your household, every dog is secondary to you!.

It is that firm conviction (which I am sure Jillie has), and all great trainers have that their commands will be obeyed, just because they said them!

It is a calm but sincere conviction you want to build in yourself. Sure let your fear of injury to one of your loved ones fuel that conviction, help you stand firm with this conviction.

I will share a horror I found this weekend. ANd who is to blame? Why me of course.

I always thought that Razzle was just be deviling our gentle Karma our Maine Coone Cat. That they played games of chase over the house. THen Razzle started twoThree days ago to hump Karma. I stopped it when I saw it, but wasn't so concerned.

And then.... I had Karma up on the grooming table on Sat. As I was brushing his beautifull coat, I found not one but TWO bite marks on his neck. One looks infected:mad::mad::mad: Both areas I shaved the hair away, to see what I was dealing with and started the disinfection process. Karma is also into the vet 2morrow.

Dave and I looked at each other, and I said NEVER again. Razzle has gotten away with way way too much here.

We put Karma down and for 2hours that evening, we individually or together, blocked Razzle from coming up to Karma. His initial first rushes over were enthusiastic, and his surprise and consternation almost comic. We blocked with our feet - we stood in front of our cat, and at the same time said NO. Firmly but with 100% conviction.

By later that evening, Razzle needed only Voice command of Leave it, and he would turn and come back to us.
Sunday am same repetition, except by late afternoon we allowed Razzle to come gently up and "sniff" Karma, but if he started to mount or jump onto the cat, again it was Leave It by voice. If he ignored the voice command, either one of us picked him up and into his crate he went.

We do crate when we are out of the house, and we crate Razzman at night, so Karma's injuries came during the day or evening when he had full run of the house, without what should have been (hindsight) is grand, our oversight.

Razzle has by no means yet earned our trust with our precious Karma, and he might never --- we shall see. But he will never be allowed again to jump on Karma, or play roughly with him at all!

In summary I have a lot of concern and quite frankly a difference of opinion about the alpha dog theory.

In a household of humans and multiple dogs the Alphas are first humans, any human of the household, and then Beta goes to all the dogs.

Anyhow Jacqui (((Hugs))) that bite looks very sore, if there is any other way I can help you have my phone number call me anytime!

Thank you
 

Thanks to all who have responded to my call for help. I hope I soon can figure it out before anyone gets seriously injured.

Gail you always have my admiration and I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I am just so confused about this. Wyatt and Widget have never had so much as a growl between them for the entire life of Wyatt until recently. I just do not believe it is anything to do with the new addition. Widget has never been aggressive but he does maintain control of the toys. He has never fought with anyone over a toy. He just matter- of- factly takes it from Wyatt or whomever has it. Not a growl or any confrontation just walks up and pulls it from them unless I happen to see it and tell him no or if he has taken it I tell him to drop it. He is a very obedient dog. It seems lately the only time there are any problems is if one of them is laying by me and the other approaches me. It is Wyatt that starts with his growl and in the past that has been the end of it. I tell him to knock it off and he does, but lately this quickly escalates to a battle. I just can't believe seeing them fight, that I have never found bite marks or even bruises on either. The fights seem to be getting more aggressive. I have a very shy Havanese who is getting really stressed by these fights. It is not that they don't get along. Many times they will be laying on my bed next to each other. They walk together fine, they even eat together with no signs of any sort of disagreement. It is something I am doing but I just can't figure out what. Wyatt has always been the one that goes in the car with me but only because Widget hates going in the car. When QueTee came along she always joined Wyatt and he has no problem with her sitting in the car seat with him. I could put widget in he car seat with Wyatt and there would be no fighting but I would have one very unhappy boy. I spend equal time with them and they both have alone time with me. I have started taking Wyatt at the first growl and putting him in a separate room away from everyone. When I reunite them it seems to be back to normal. I just can't bring myself not to intervene and protect them from hurting each other. I now keep the buddy belts on them so I have something to grab when I separate them. It really has upset me and the whole gang but at least it is not a constant problem where I have to be afraid when ever they are near each other.
I'm glad you discovered poor Karma's injuries but sorry you too have to deal with this.

Here are some thoughts from experiences I've had to consider and see if any of it might fit your situation. Working on limited knowledge but going off what you've posted just above, here goes:

If you are in the middle of this problem between your dogs because there is possessiveness involved, that is something you can work to stop but you will have to make some changes and also determine which one is guarding you and doesn't want the other to have much access to you. Who knows what made it start or how long they lived in peace together and who really cares as you have got to fix it by taking control of the situation and not letting the dogs run the show. If Wyatt is doing the growling, he's probably the one who is so possessive but not necessarily. He could - could - just be reacting to the other dog's signals of "She's mine - don't you come near while I'm here" and growling back at those and getting tense. His tension tenses up the first dog and more signals are sent and you soon have a fight over mommie.

No matter how well your little guys are already trained, I would start and at all times enforce the Nothing In Life Is Free program for everything for a few weeks, right down to even their water for the first week but everything else for a few weeks after that. Get them obeying a command for everything they get or do. It's a marvelous tool for doggies acting out in any way. I would stop the dog lying next to me when the other is around until they are farther along in their rehab from this present unstable state. Make them lie on the floor or in their beds for a time and treat them for staying in their beds.

I would obedience train each of them x3 daily for 5 mins. each session, giving big treats and smiles and praise for each accomplishment no matter how many times they have done the tricks and get them working with you one at a time and then together. Good working sessions help give a dog structure and enjoyment and confidence in his own worth and achievement, not to mention teaching him to do what you say quickly to get his praise and reward.

Desensitize the trouble-maker to your playing and loving on the other dog. Put the very possessive dog in his open wire crate and sit down next to it with the other dog and play with that dog right there on the floor by the crate, all the while tossing a juicy piece of chicken into the crate every time there is physical touch between the dog you are caressing and playing with. Don't worry if the one in the crate becomes agitated by this or growls at first as this activity goes against his possessive attitude. Ignore this for the present and allow him to slowly come to accept the interaction over time. Keep the sessions about a minute or two long at first and then allow the crated dog out, put the other dog in the crate with a treat. I would let the just-freed dog outside to pee, decompress and run off any pent-up frustrations and stay outside to play and explore a while. If you can manage it, a fast walk would be good at this time to kind of work and then relax him. Bring him in the house for water and a good rest and allow the other dog now to go outside to pee, play and walk if possible. By the time these two are back together, they should have their frustrations worked out for a while, be pleasantly tired and ready to co-exist peacefully for a while. For the present, don't let either dog lie next to you but in his bed on the floor with the other dog.

I wouldn't let one or the other next to me for a while during this training until you have gone through the desensitization exercises for about two weeks and prolonged the playing sessions with the non-jealous dog while the jealous dog is in the crate watching as you play and getting his treats when physical touch occurs between you and the other dog.

In time, the jealous dog can then be moved out of the crate on the leash and told to lie down and watch as you play with the other dog and toss the little possessive one a treat every so often. Watch his body language and if he begins focus, alert, get tense, growl or get agitated, stand up and tell him "No" with your hand held out in a stop position in front of you. Stand there over him making constant eye contact until he backs down and calms down, even putting the other dog in the crate while the little growler settles himself back down. But stand there calmly until he does. Take deep breaths and never get angry. You are watching a baby boy learning to accept changes and it is hard for him and he needs time to work through it. When he does settle, sit and obviously watch him for a while, catching his eye and then treat him and bring the other dog back out and resume the play, treating little Mr. Possessive all the while but letting him know you are watching him.

Little by little you should be able to show the possessive dog that you are in charge of their interactions, that play with the other dog is highly rewarding for him because Mr. Jealous is treated frequently the whole time and you will not allow him to growl and takeover control. He'll be used to obeying you because that obedience training and NILIF work that you will be doing concurrently during these weeks will all the while be conditioning him to always do what you say quickly and to learn to love obeying you.

After a two-weeks' time, you should be able to allow the other dog to lie next to you for brief periods while you toss treats over to the jealous dog and then praise him, let him outside to potty, play and release his tensions and then switch the two out, letting the other dog out for a while.

Next teach Widget to lie quietly by in the crate as you play with toys with Wyatt, treating Widget with treats tossed in the crate and following the desensitization training above. Do not allow Widget to feel he has control of the toys any further now that fights have happened and allow him to slowly learn that the toys are yours and as pack leader, you and you alone decides who plays with them when. With fighting dogs, it just has to be this way. Some never really do come to accept toys being played with by the other dog or dogs if the pack leader isn't really in control and it is always a problem. But if you are gentle but very firm and slowly decondition them to owning toys themselves, Desensitize them to seeing other dogs play with toys they had thought were their own and on board with playing by your rules, they will submit to that situation in time. I've seen it work time after time.

With most dogs, this type of intense training and desensitization sessions work together to teach them who is pack leader and in firm control and is taking the time to teach the trouble-maker how to accept his pack mate in a way he'd come to strongly dislike. He learns that he doesn't have the place of authority in your pack and he can't make those kinds of decisions and dogs are readily able to change and love a good, strong, loving leader. Dogs are genetically programmed to accept hierarchy and thrive on it so don't be afraid to take and hold control. Sometimes with boys(or even girls) it is just necessary!!! :)