Help with crate training my "dirty girl"
 

Hi YT!
I am begging for some guidance. Farrah is now a year old and just a "dirty girl". Now while I thought that "dirty girl" was funny as a pup, I am afraid she will never change.
I will say that I am a homemaker and have probably confused her with going outside and having pee pads in her x-pen in the house.
So here is what I have been trying to do for the past 2 weeks. I have a small plastic crate which I have put a rolled towel in the back of to shorten. I put Farrah in there whenever I go out (about 1-2 hours max) and then again for the night. When she is not getting play-time or out for a walk, she is in the x-pen with a bed, bully stick, water and pee pad.
Of the past 14 nights she has been poo free for 2. She pees in the crate every night. It doesn't matter if I take her out at 9:30 or 11:30pm she will still pee in her crate around 6am. (I wake at 6:45am)
I feed her TOTW at 7am, take away the bowl by 8:30am and take away her water by 5pm each day. I cannot be on any more of a schedule. I just don't know what else to do.
Also if you are not constantly interacting with her during play-time she will squat where she is and pee.
When she was a pup, the breeder thought maybe she had a UTI. Not for 10 months now. She is a "marker", the sole reason why I did not want a male. I was afraid a male would mark.
Any information you can give I would greatly appreciate. :)

I'm confused, you're putting her in a crate with pee pads?
Have you had her spayed yet? if not this may curb the marking behavior.
Some dogs are better without having an indoor option for peeing, i.e. trained to go soley outside. I say remove the crate option all together since she has it confused for a place to potty, and start all over again just like she is a brand new puppy.
Oh, and since I stopped putting Rizzo in his crate at night and letting him sleep in bed and he sleeps later than I do, when he was waking me up between 530 and 6 to let him out. When you leave her in the ex-pen is she using the potty pad like she should? How much do you feed her? That could be affecting how often she is pooing.

You and I are in similiar boats. Troy is about 15 months old. I started potty training him as a puppy with an expen that had pads. I had a revelation one day to start crate training. Just two weeks ago actually.

I work full time so I'm on a bit different schedule than you. Here's what I do. He doesn't sleep in the crate a night mind you.

5:30 am Troy is let outside. (he pees and poos)
When he's let back in he goes to sleep while I'm getting dressed.
7:00 am Troy is let out again (he pees)
In the house, to the crate he goes. (his crate has a blanket, soft toy and a bully stick)
2:30 pm Troy is let outside (pees and poos)
He stays out the crate watching tv with my daughter and baby sitter until I get home from work.
4:30 I'm home from work, gets let out pees
7:00 is usually when he eats
8:00 Troy is let out (pees and poos)
10:30 let out again for the night...Goodnight moon!

He's had 2 accidents in the crate and thats when I rushed in the morning and didn't allow him to get a poop out.

Stick with the consistency. I also think she might be spiting you when she pees in the crate.

Rachel, you leave a dog in a crate for 7 and a half hours? I think I'd pee on myself out of irritation, espically going from an expen to a crate. Why the change? I used to crate Rizzo at night, as he always slept great in there, and it is his little den, but that was just overnight while I was training him to hold it through the night. We no longer use the crate at all, I wouldn't do it during the day time, when they're used to being able to have space to move around strech out, play a little, eat, drink, and potty if the need to. 7 1/2 hours is a long time to sit in a box...jmo.

Deuce,

I can understand your point of view and that's something I did consider when I switched over. While using the expen when he was out of the designated area he would still potty in the house. Sometimes under my bed, in the living room, anywhere really. Despite having access to potty pads he just went where ever he pleased. I got tired of it.

He got older and he seemed to like going outside better, walking, running, etc. He does his business and comes right back in with no issues. So to protect my carpet and my house from smelling like "DOG" , it's a choice I had to make.

Rachael

So how is using a crate going to change that? Not trying to attack, but I've never understood the crate training method but I know it does work for some dogs, but goes the opposite way for others.
Rizzo prefers going outside more often as well, but will use the potty pad if I get home late for lunch or in the evenings. He is limited to the kitchen (in place of an expen) when I am at work, and it took the longest time to figure out that he'll only use the potty pad if I am not around, when I am home if I don't take him out when he needs to go he'll just go by the back door or under/around anything in the living room where the door is located. So I just limited his roaming room, he is only allowed in rooms with direct supervision by myself and if he has an accident I clean with an enzyme cleaner to eliminate the smell for both of us.
I still can't let him wander unsupervised because he goes strait to the cat box to find a snack :thumbdown or will pee if he feels the urge. He is 11 months old, but we're getting a hang of it. He only has accidents when I'm home and not taking him outside to play and what not as often as he wants. :rolleyes:

I've only done this method with Troy for 2 weeks. I'm no expert on dog behavior either. I can't explain why he hasn't just done the roam and go. He's in the crate and doesn't go...doesn't want to do his business in the crate. I bought a larger crate than recommended so he's not cramped. I also believe I'm more consistent with this method than I was when he was in an ex pen so that could be why he's not doing the negative behavior.

I had other dogs and I crate trained them. Cocker Spaniels and they got the hang of it pretty fast and only accidents I ever had in the house was when they were sick.

Troy was 12 weeks when I got him and wouldn't go outside when we first got him. Now he's older and training is easier.

Sidenote: I don't feel attacked:animal36

No pee pads in the crate. Only in the x-pen during the day when I cannot supervise her free time.
She was spayed at 7 months old. She eats a little more than 1/4 of a cup once a day (and no snacks) and I moved her feeding time to 7am because she would poo overnight. She still does that but with the crate she seems to try to hold it til 6 am. Even if she poops at 11pm she most times will poop in the crate during the night. That is about 7 hours between pottys. And she poops about 3 additional times during the day.
Before I started with the crate I would let her stay in the ex-pen at night with a pee pad. Because she is one who walks as she poops she would walk all around the x-pen and on top of her bed, etc. And sometimes in her water bowl. Gross I know. I'm worried that she is just disgusting and I won't be able to change that. What's your best guess?

I also want to mention that she will pee on the floor where the x-pen is instead of the pee pad or in addition to peeing on the pad. But 9 out of 10 times it is on the floor. I use straight white vinegar but she doesn't need to smell a prior pee because she just goes where she wants.
Thanks for any ideas/advice you can give me. I'm getting desperate.

While I appreciate the "bump" of the housetraining sticky. It does not begin to answer my specific question. So I am "bumping" my thread.

We have the same problem with our puppy, Walt. He cannot hold his pee over night so instead of putting him in his crate where he would go and we'd have to wash everything in the morning including him, we put him in our tile bathroom and he goes on the puppy pad, which is great!

However, we canNOT get him to go outside all of the time. One day he'll do really well but the next it'll be like he's forgotten everything he's learning. He hardly ever poops in the house but he pees SO MUCH. When he does go outside we praise him like he won the olympics and give him a treat... Will it ever click with him? What can we do differently? He's 4 months old... When will he do better???

We got him a "simple solution" It's a cloth that goes over his middle section and he DOES go to the door with that on and will go outside... But when we take it off he thinks he can pee anywhere in the house. Will we always have to keep this on?

Also, it's hard for us to keep him on a scheduel because we both work full time... Any advice would be VERY much appreciated.

I was going to quote every one in this thread.... but it would take up too much space. So... have a read....

1. Yorkies are small dogs. Small dogs need to be fed twice(two times) each day! If you set it out all at once, they may eat the whole amount, or if not, it will get stale. Not good for their digestion. Divide the daily portion by 2 and feed them two times daily for adults.... 3-4 times for puppies.

2. For a 'Dirty Dog", you must keep her clean. Lose the crate... it's not working. Get her vet checked. Feed her twice a day.... it sounds as though she may be having difficulty pooping... too little or too much indicates a problem. Walking around while pooping could mean she is straining to go. See your vet. Rule out UTI, partial impaction, and hormone imbalances, among a few things that can cause inappropriate urination or frequent bowel movements.

3. Chew toys are choking hazards and should only be given when you are there to supervise. Feed twice daily.

4. No one mentioned walking their dog, it's good exercise to get their bowels moving. Also helps for dogs who need to mark, and yes, females are as bad about this as many males. AM: out to pee, in to eat. Out for a walk after eating, until they poop.

5. Dog goes poop and pee anywhere in the house: Limit their space to one room. When they gain control, increase their space to 2 rooms... not the entire house. Increase by one room at a time, as they learn control.

6. Full time workers: The pup or dog you own is your responsibility. Hire someone or find a friend or neighbor to walk the dog at lunchtime. Especially good to do with puppies, but all dogs will appreciate it. It will help with their digestion and to become more regular with their potty habits.

7. Four month old puppies are too young to have the run of the house (generally). If he's peeing too much... see your vet for a check up. Training a dog or puppy is basically 'teaching' him one time what you expect, the rest is repetition. Start on a weekend, or any 2 days you have off together. Take him out every hour or two, until he gets consistent. Then extend the time increment by an hour. Four month old puppies can only 'hold it' 4 hours at the most. Basically, an hour for each month of age.

8. Bathrooms are not good rooms to keep Yorkies in. They can climb into the toilet and drown or die from hypothermia, or both.

9. Please visit the YorkieTalk Library... and read up on puppy care (feeding) and potty training. You can also find many other threads by using the search feature found at the bottom of every page, just limit the search to YorkieTalk, and it will bring up all the threads on the subject.

I apologize if I sound harsh, not my intent. You all need to be educated in caring for a Yorkie, they are different than any other dog on the planet. I am sure I left out alot, so I sincerely urge you all to do some intense reading of the information available on this site. If you need help finding anything... please ask someone for help.


PS: If they need to go and do it before you get up... get up early to let them out.

Thank you KJC for the information. I do not think you were harsh. Just a little annoyed and I think that is okay.
Farrah has been a "dirty girl" from day one at exactly 12 weeks old when I got her back in January. So much so that I bathe her every other day and wash her feet almost every time she does her business. I am a fanatic with cleanliness. She does not have a UTI but maybe the hormone imbalance you mentioned. She has always walked when she does her business and I have found that to be very common in a lot of dogs.
My "dirty girl" has no problem walking and/or jumping on her pee and poop. I think it is disgusting and don't understand. I have only had big dogs in my lifetime and not one of them ever stepped in their "business".
When you suggest getting rid of the crate, what is the alternative? If left in the x-pen (which she is completely happy with too) she will potty all around...on her bed, in the water bowl, floor and sometimes even on the potty pad. Have you ever heard of a dog pooping in their dish? Then I'm back to bathing her daily and I already have 5 beds in the rotation.
I stopped feeding her at night based on the breeders recommendation to help with the potty overnight. She is thriving so I don't see it to be a problem.
What do yo think is a realistic age for a Yorkie to be housebroken? I cannot be on any more of a schedule with her and couldn't be cleaner...not possible. BTW, she is walked twice a day. And has play time twice a day.
Thanks again for your input.

There is such a thing as 'Dirty Dog Syndrome'. You may want to Google that to see... I think Animal Planet did a show with a dog that had it. If you can't find suggestions... I can't remember exactly what was done but will try to research later... I would consider getting a professional trainer and schedule a meeting all with your vet. She's missing a connection in her brain, or missed some of her Mom's training as a puppy. It may take assessments, evaluations, and recommendations from the professionals to get her back on track.

I would have her skin and feet checked for problems, rule out hydrocephalus or any brain disorder, and have a fecal done to check for parasites (sent out to a lab, not the in-house kind). I'd request a thyroid panel done too, as the thyroid is very important in metabolism. Also, get her on probiotics and digestive enzymes, added to her food, and feed her twice daily... this will encourage her to eliminate after eating. If you feed all day long, they will poop all day long.

If not the crate, then yes the Xpen or the kitchen (room that is easy to clean). Keeping her in a crate where she has no choice but to sit in filth is never going to be the answer for her. Try to find a way to elevate the bowls (no plastics) either on the side of the X-pen or a raised feeder, to make soiling them more difficult. Or use a water bottle for dogs, if she will learn to drink from it. Monitor her intake to be sure she's getting enough. Maybe try elevating her bed slightly on a cardboard box.

Consider using a diaper on her. Are her stools very soft? Add 1 tsp canned pumpkin and or 6 (3 whole) green beans to each meal to add fiber, maybe produce a firmer stool. What are you feeding her?

Yorkies can be housetrained anywhere from 10 weeks to never. Most 'get it' by 1 year of age.

Many things can affect Yorkies. I have concerns about your dog and think a professional trainer could better evaluate her environment and routines to give you better suggestions. Many times, owners don't see certain things as a problem, when a trainer could spot something that you never would think to tell me, so my advice could be totally off-base.

I do give you credit and respect you for not giving up on her sooner. It's a ton of work to deal with this type of pottying issue.

The main concepts are to get her to potty at regular intervals on a walk, and to get any accidents cleaned up before she can access them, and clean up everything if she does make a mess asap.

I at least hope I have given you hope. These dogs can be helped. Hang in there. It takes a lot of work but the results will be so worth it! (I know I don't need to tell you that!)

My now 2 yr old yorkie, did the same thing your little girl is doing. He didn't mind being in his crate and sitting in his mess. I got so tired of bathing him everyday for 2 months. So, I decided to put pads down in my laundry room at night and gated it off. I put water, food, toys in there and he used the pads all on his own. I did not want to pad train him, his breeder had started, so i guess that's what he wanted to do. Now, it's been a yr and he has free roam of the house, occasional accident because he doesn't let me know when he has to go out. After setting him up in a small area using pads, i didn't have to give those everyday baths. Now, he sleeps in my room without being crated, but if i have to leave him for a long period, i put him in the laundry room and he uses the pad while i'm gone. if it's raining out. i put him in the laundry room every 3-4 hrs to do his business. other than that, he will potty outside. do you have a separate 'small' area to do a set up that way?

I now have a 14 wk old, who is in the crate during the day, just for training purposes. I'm home during the day and take her out every hour. So, lastnight i decided to do the laundry room thing with her and she used the pad. when she was in the ex pen, she would tear up the pads, pee and poop everywhere, but in the laundry room she didn't do any of that. she didn't even poop overnight, which is unusual for her. so i guess i will be doing her training the same way.

When you catch her in the act, what do you do? When you find her droppings, what do you do?

I personally have never used pee pads, but it seems to me that she thinks it's ok to go in the house. If I were you (and keep in mind I'm no expert this is only my opinion) I would try to teach her to go only outside. If she had an accident inside, I would show it to her say "no" in a big mean voice and put her outside. Go outside with her for the first little while and when you see her go, praise her like crazy. Give treats, and associate a word with the action ie "good potty".


Some people tend to think that disciplining a dog without catching them in the act is useless, but I disagree. If you find droppings or she went in her kennel make sure she knows she has done something wrong. Don't rub her noise in it but rather show it to her and say "no" - then put her outside or on her pee pad.

I don't know, personally I think pee pads are great if you have a puppy or older dog or if you can't take them out (you live in an apartment). But IMO if you can teach them to go outside you probably should.

I used the exercise pen and pee pads when I first brought mine home at 12 weeks. Over time they learned to use the Pee pad that I would keep out in the family room. They are now 6 and 7 months old but are 80-90 percent trained to go on the pee pad.

It sounds like you have a good routine with the laundry room thing so keep up the good work.

When you 'catch them in the act', you pick them up and put them where they should be 'going', either peepad or outside. Then Praise and give a treat. When you find droppings, you clean it up, and say nothing to the dog. Word association is good but be consistent and say the 'word' only once, and only while they are doing the deed.

Telling a Yorkie 'No' if it's eliminating in the wrong place, may make them want to hide the next time they 'go'. They think that 'No' means don't go potty at all, not that you mean 'No, wrong place'.

Yorkies live 'in the moment' as all dogs do. Especially puppies. Showing them old poop means nothing to them. That's 'old school', but sometimes does work.

The new method found to be most effective, most humane, and quickest is through 'positive reinforcement' which basically involves rewarding the good behavior and totally ignoring the bad.

Yorkies are very sensitive little beings and to be scolded when they don't have a clue will confuse them and cause them to distrust the owner.

One of my dogs has a delayed signal. I keep a peepad mainly for her, she doesn't know till the very last second that she has to go. Progress is slow, but she tries to make it to the door, and many times it's my fault, I am not quick enough... though my dash times to the door behind her are improving also. Working on timing after a meal has helped.

When she doesn't make the door, she knows she's doing wrong, I can see it in her eyes and her body language. I don't say anything. When we both make it to the door and outside, she gets praise, which she loves, and a treat. So she does know the difference. If I scolded her, she would run behind a chair and 'go', rather than try to reach the peepad or the door, because she is very sensitive, and loves to please me, and scolding her would hurt her feelings immensely, and make her very sad.

Hi Kathy,

I feed Farrah TOTW. I give her 1/2 a cup a day. She generally will eat 2/3rds that amount. I give it to her at 7am and take it away at 8:30am.

I sadly agree that she may have "dirty dog syndrome". I googled it and read a lot and am very sad. Yorkies are notoriously hard to train and now I have the challenge of DDS along with it. I read that I should feed her meals on the bottom of the crate. What do you think of that? I also wonder if I took away the potty pads during the day and just took her out every 1/2 hour if that would do the trick.

For 2 nights now she has done her business at 9:30pm. So no poop in the crate in the morning. But I heard her this morning at 5:45am and ran down the stairs to take her out but she already peed in the crate. It seems that her signals to me are off. She lets me know when she does her "business" After she does it. Any idea on how to train her to "tell" me before?
I truly appreciate your input and will be giving the vet a call.

That's what we did with Walt. He would go in his crate and I would have to give him a bath every day so we set up his bed with his little blanket and toys and put a puppy pad down. He used the puppy pad all on his own.

We put him in our downstairs bathroom because that's the only small tiled room we have. We don't leave the toilet lid up so there is no WAY he could fall in. Unless his little paws grew thumbs or something and HE grew a lot more. So I think he's fine in the bathroom and I'm not worried about him drowning. We also have his bed on a folded towel and turn a heater on so the tiles not cold. He likes it and when we say "time for bed" that's where he goes!

Very cute. Good Luck.
Farrah has been crate clean for 4 nights now. I have been waking up on her schedule (too early) but I hope she will learn to have a clean den and "want" a clean den. I'm not sure how long it will take but I am already more happy.
Also, I started to give her a treat as she does her potty outside. A lot less on the floor of her x-pen the past few days and more on the pee pad as well. My best guess is that my crazy cheering wasn't enough praise and that the little "stinker" wanted more! :D

I strongly urge you to feed her twice daily. Give her 1/4 cup in the AM, on the crate or floor is fine, bc she will finish that amount. Then give her the other 1/4 between 5-7 PM. Feeding her this way will make her bowels more regular. These pups are too small to function properly on one feeding a day. The goal is to have her potty within a half hour of eating. It may take her a week or two to adjust.

The key times to take her out are:
1. Very first thing in the morning (even if she already went in her crate.)
2. 10-20 minutes after each meal. A walk will help her digestion.
3. After playtime, and after naps (or periods of inactivity)
4.The very last thing before you go to bed at night.
5. Whenever you come home from being out, take her out first thing.
6. Take her out right before you leave the house.
7. For intense housetraining: take her out every two hours, in addition to the times above. If she's still having accidents make it every hour, (or 1/2 hour) and gradually extend the time as she becomes successful.

Once she gets in the habit of getting a treat for pottying outside, she should figure out that she needs to get your attention to make that happen and get the treat. Or there are bells to hang on the door that she can be taught to ring before going outside. Be patient... one day she'll surprise you!

To learn her signals, you will need to watch her. Look for sniffing the floor, circling, running to the door. (Always use the same door to go potty from). With the schedule above and keeping an eye on her, eventually you will see her repeat some kind of behavior right before she goes potty. That would be her signal.

Yay!

Sometimes it takes a bit more to give them the idea of what you want. Also, as you have more and more positive experiences together, your bond will get stronger, and you'll both be happier. Treats never hurt, and given appropriately can be a great aid in getting through to them.

Good Luck, and keep us posted... Just a warning: Yorkies sometimes slip back into an untrained state, like if you go on vacation or something.... just start over with her and she should get back on track within two weeks or so.

An update on my "dirty girl". Contacted a professional trainer and brought her to the vet.
The vet said she is fine and is a yorkie who are notoriously hard to house train. The trainer gave me some advice which has worked wonderfully during the day. We still have the issue of poo and pee in the crate at night. Now she stands in it but doesn't lay in it. (progress? LOL)
Today I have decided to go back to feeding her 2x a day to see if that will break the cycle. BTW, She is on TOTW Wetlands. (Fowl) The only "treat" she gets are cheerios at training times...which in all honesty is not every day.
thanks again KJC!

Honestly, I am amazed that you're seeing progress so soon! That is absolutely super!

As for 'being notoriously hard to housetrain', I'm sorry but your little one is maybe a bit way beyond that. (or was!).

The only suggestions I can make at this point would be to try her on some probiotics (to help digestion) bc I don't understand why, when she's on a morning feed, she would be able to poop at night. The probiotics would give her system any tools she may be lacking and provide for total and complete digestion of her food, and I hope may help in regulating her BMs. Nature's Farmacy - Store - Product Details I use this product ($13.95 for 8 oz) on my four and it lasts forever. They all have less issues with their tummies and diarrhea since I've had them on this product.

My final suggestion would be to sleep with her, preferably at night, but even if you could only do a nap during the day I really think it may help.

I know you've probably read where we all say Yorkies are different than other dogs. Part of the reason they are different is their ability and willingness to form a very strong bond with their humans.

Allowing her in your "den" at night would really help to establish or reinforce this bond.

Yorkies that are not allowed this type of intense bonding with their owners, I feel, are missing something vital in their lives, as are their owners.

I also realize that many people are totally against having a dog in their bed, and I guess I can understand it, but if they own a Yorkie... they are missing out on alot.

It would be showing her that she is an accepted member of the family. She may feel like an outcast being in the crate at night, and the pooping at night may be her way of 'acting out'. If you try this, and this ends up being what she needs... you may end up not having a problem at all!

The thing that leads me to believe this may be the answer is that you are, in effect, paying more attention to her, by having her on a strict schedule, and trying to learn her signals and watching her more. To her... this is all 'attention' or 'interaction'. (and it's working for her!) And because your vet gives her a clean bill of health, so there is no medical reason for her 'habits', I wonder if it is a bonding issue. Some Yorkies just need more of a connection to their owners than others.

If you're worried about her pooping in your bed, use an old comforter or something to ease your mind. Dogs try hard to avoid soiling the 'den'. She's not seeing the crate as 'her den'. The 'den' is where Mommie sleeps.

I am so happy that your are begining to see some improvement... especially so early into the training. :D

Hi Kathy,
I just want to thank you for your time, patience and educated answers to my "dirty girl" problem.
I ordered the probiotic you linked for me. I also fed her twice yesterday and am doing so again today. I also moved her crate up to my room. I let her out at 11pm, 1:30am and 6:20am with no poop. But I fed her at 7am and a few minutes later...poop! YAY!
I hope it continues. I have had Farrah's crate in my room before, but the last time I brought it back in she was very unsettled. So I brought her back down to the kitchen. Not sure if she will stay in my room. We will see. But I will say that I won't mess with success.
I truly appreciate everything! No one else took the time to "listen" I think everyone else thought I was just another kid with a yorkie pup and didn't have a clue. Well, I'm certainly not a kid (41) but may act like one : ) And I'm not crazy. I felt like I bought a pet store dog instead of a breeder dog for the longest time. Now at least I have some light at the end of the tunnel.
All the best,
Michele