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My vet says I need to.. Use submission exercises on my dog? I think she was calling her a brat :p haha but she is. Does anyone do this with your dogs? and what do you do? She told me I should grab all her legs and put her on her side and make her lay there. I should be doing this a couple times a day. She does not like to be bossed around though! She freaks out when I do this and won't stop wiggling, and then runs away and hides from me :rolleyes: She won't let me touch her for like an hour. |
I really hate vets. lol IMO this sounds nuts. |
I'm a firm believer in positive reinforcement...in other words..use treats, not submission! |
A safer trick is to take her food away while she's eating. Also, act like you eat the food first and make her wait. It's less physical with the dog. I also agree with positive reinforcement. If you scare your dog, then what good is having a poor little puppy scared in the corner. Others may disagree, but what your vet suggested sounds harsh. |
I do agree with posters above. I think only professionals should be able to put a dog into submission and do it properly. And it should rarely be used. I think some dogs need it but most don't. It can actually lead to more aggression, especially if done improperly. In your case, positive reinforcement will work best. Vets should not really be suggesting training techniques, IMO. You don't want a dog to be scared of you. Being a leader and being mean and harsh are two totally different things. Yes, you want to be the leader of your dog, but you don't want to scare them. Training should be rewarding and fun for both dog and human! |
I would find a vet that actually likes dogs......that one sounds like she is a dog hater to me. Frightening any pet is mean spirited. |
I just looked at your profile, if your Yorkie was just born in February, in my humble opinion, that is way too young to expect perfect behavior. She's still just a baby...enjoy the high spirits of puppyhood. |
I understand where shes coming from though because she was just trying to examine her and she would not hold still! She wouldnt let her look at her teeth or anything, she was trying to climb up me. She does hate it when people try to hold her down, like when I try to give her a haircut or brush her teeth she goes INSANE |
Our first vet told me to do the same to my pup, despite the fact that he was perfectly behaved during the examination, shots, nail clipping, and bordetella vacc poured down his nose. After enduring all of that like a trooper, the vet forced my pup onto his back and grabbed his snout. She instructed me to do the same to him every day to let him know who is boss. :eek: We have a different vet now. |
Good lord! I'd be looking for a new vet if mine told me that! She's hiding from you now, but eventually she will probably fight back. That's a good way to teach your dog to be aggressive. I'd suggest printing off this article for your vet: ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory I'd suggest trying the Nothing In Life is Free training method: Nothing in Life is Free Nothing in Life is Free Gaining control of your dog humanely |
Change Vets fast as you can!!! I don't know of any Vet that would say to do that. Isn't it borderline abusive to force a dog into submission? That's just me though.... |
This is sort of scarry. I really do not like dominance training. Bruce can be a bit of a pill at times and many people have over the years reccomended this, but I can tell you I have gotten better results from positive reinforcement every time! When a dog is suffering from anxiety or fear that provokes a negative behavior such as not holding still for an exam it is sheer foolishness to claim that by physically punishing a dog, the dog is fixed. This can be dangerous. Hard punishments used in dominance training are not only cruel but are damage the trust between dog and human. The punishment probably will work there and then, but it will just make the dog feel more insecure and wary of you or the vet and it is common for dogs that are punished in this manner to keep reoffending because they haven’t been shown that there is another way to behave. Punitive training just puts a band aid on the problem but the dog still feels the same inside if not more insecure for the punishment he has received for ‘behaving badly’. |
My Yorkie is not the most well trained, but I wanted another terrier (this our 3rd one since 1965), just because of the spirit and personality of the terriers. At 5 years old her feeling can be hurt if I just roll up a sheet of paper and scold her. She's my "heart" and I would never ever want to break her beautiful spirit. She listens and comes when called...drives my husband crazy barking when the doorbell rings, alerts me when someone comes on our property (because she thinks she's protecting us)and is an accomplished "snuggler"~~~~~~and she makes me happy. She is excellent at her "job". Just give your baby a little time to figure out this ol' world and you'll be amazed at how smart she is. Click the line to see Annie. http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q...issannie-1.jpg |
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I fire the vet and find a new vet that is practicing good behaviour work based in the 20th century not in fantasy. JL |
I think you need to switch vets, seriously. It's totally inappropriate for a vet to suggest such an outdated technique, and because the dog hates being examined? It's an exceptional dog that DOESN'T hate it. If you want to work on stuff like haircuts and brushing teeth, I suggest you slowly desensitize her to these things. I took a month to get Thor used to brushing his teeth, and it was totally worth it. I started by getting him used to my finger in his mouth and then moved up to brushing. It's not like he's totally in love with it now, but we do it every night and he takes it like the little trooper he is. You can also get her more comfortable being handled. When she is relaxed, like while you are rubbing her belly, practice touching different parts of her body and praising her. Get her used to having her ears touched, her paws, her rear, etc. Again, slow and positive will get you everywhere. |
Ellie is wiggly during exams too. :) This is how I see it. Positive reinforcement is great. Proper restaint is not negative reinforcement though. I wouldn't say you need to force her on her side and hold all four paws right now. Start slow. Do one thing at a time. But in my opinion, getting a dog used to being restrained and even putting it in uncomfortable (by that I don't mean painful) positions is not a bad thing. If I just let Ellie decide to not be restrained at home, then I'm not quite sure how her teeth would get brushed. It isn't her favorite. And how would I give her SQ fluids if I let her walk around and do what she wants? Be safe about it, but don't let her do what she wants to either. :) And treats are great. If you start small and are consistent, then positive reinforcement may work very well. |
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Just some food for thought: most zoo animals are trained to get *shots*. Usually this is done by training the animal to touch a mark with their nose, and then standing still. They generally get a food reward, and many of them absolutely love "performing". So if you are having trouble with a yorkie, imagine working with a giraffe. That's not to say that I myself have trained Thor so beautifully that he would get a shot without batting an eyelash. He struggles at the vet. However, there is a difference between occasionally restraining your pet and forcing it into a frightening, submissive position several times per day just to teach it a lesson. Let me also suggest for people whose pets really object to grooming, etc: keep in mind that if your dog is resisting you, it is probably frightened. So really, it's a kindness to your dog to train your dog to deal with these things, because not only is it easier for you, it's no longer a scary, unpredictable experience for your dog. |
This is so psychologically damaging when done to a puppy! What your vet is asking you to do is a variation of a technique developed by a breeder/trainer decades ago, intended to only be used by other trainers when dealing with older, severely agressive dogs only after absolutely all other possible methods of training have failed. Please do not do this exercise with your puppy. You risk permanent damage to her psyche, you can very easily cause injury to one or all of her legs, back, and/or neck. |
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I have to respectfully disagree with your Vet on this one. The alpha roll is an outdated maneuver that does more harm than good - especially for our little ones. I think you can do gentle 'submission exercises' by teaching 'down' and 'sit' using positive reinforcement (I use special treats). These simple commands reinforce your position as the 'leader' without any use of force. You can then use these to teach manners - like 'sit' before their food bowl is put down' 'sit' while they are being leashed; 'sit' before they walk out the door. Little things like that are gentle and polite. You can also google Nothing in Life For Free (NILF) which gives a whole host of training ideas - simply teaching your dog manners; reinforces your position as leader; AND is simply a polite way of living together. Good Luck! |
Submission techniiques like this don't work- they are based on the observation of wild wolves who WILLINGLY roll to their side for the Alpha dog. It's almost never that the alpha wolf would have to hold down another dog. Just a thought though, could your vet actually be suggesting that you work with your pups feet and tummy while it is lying on it's side in an attempt to desensitize them? That's quite a bit different than physically forcing a dog over. |
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Good grief, all I have to do is sweet talk my little ones and they will do anything for me. I can't immagine holding them down like that. I thought torture methods went out with the nazi regime. Scary. |
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