Trick training versus life skills
 

I really enjoy training Thor. Ultimately, I think I would like to do rally with him, or get him a good citizen title.

So far I've focused mostly on tricks. He can Sit, Down, Up, Stay, Come, Roll Over, Bang!, Spin, Shake, High Five, and Speak. We are currently working on Quiet.

Now I want to focus more on his behavior generally. He is a pretty good walker, and can Stay outside in a park for about a minute. However, I've finally faced up to the fact that he doesn't know his name :rolleyes:.

I also have a lot of trouble getting him to Sit when he knows he isn't getting a treat. I've been working on getting him to sit at street corners, and I believe the problem is that he wants to thoroughly check out the environment before he sits - so sometimes he'll look around for ten seconds, and then Sit, sometimes he'll Sit because I say it in a really stern voice several times, or he'll sit because I "walk into" him.

Anyway, I am wondering about what kind of general "pay attention to me and don't run out into the street" tricks people have focused on, and how they get their dogs to behave. Currently we are working on his name, and Watch Me. Generally, I would just like him to be more attentive to me and look to me more guidance when we walk by big dogs. Currently, his philosophy is, "When In Doubt, Bark It Out".

Aw, Thor is such a smart little guy, especially for learning all those tricks later in his life!
You're a good teacher. :)

I'm working on the same kind of things with Jackson. He's just gotten better with age with
the paying attention to me thing. I've never worked on "Watch Me" yet but I'd like to.
Generally when I say his name, he will pay attention. I try to not to repeat his name too
much for fear of over-using it. I usually just walk the opposite way he's walking, quickly
say "come" and keep walking and not even pay attention to him or try to get to him, and
he will follow me.

Sorry, I don't have much advice to give you though! :(

QuickSilver, you know that I certainly can't give advise.
Sometimes when I call Abby she just ignores me or acts like "Who me, whatever." and walks the other way.:( Most of the time I say come, she thinks I'm just playing and hops around back and forth. She is just a hoot.
Trying to get her to sit sometimes is a challenge. Other times she does well.
So........that being said, please let me know if you come up with any good suggestions. Good luck.
Hey Thor......mind mommy!:D

I taught mine to be off leash by teaching them the stay and come command inside then taking treats and practicing it outside off leash. This was more difficult with Chachi because he had a tendency to run but he got used to it in time. Jewels I didnt have to train she just always stayed with us off leash

We also use the command lets go

QuickSilver, last night I looked up Tamar Gellar website. Check out the videos here,
The Loved World - Home

The last link takes you to
Training Videos Presented by Dog Life Coach Tamar Geller | The Humane Society of the United States with 6 more of her videos. Thought the 'Teach your dog to Come' might also help with teaching Thor his name. Check it out.

I have her book The loved dog. I really like her training methods

Also the video about 'Vocabulary'.

Last night was the first I checked her out. Will have to get her book & dvd. It looks good!

She was on Oprah before. She trained Oprahs dogs

Ok here are my thoughts without reading anyonen else so if I repeat sorry.

We tend to over use our dogs names in normal day to day chatter.
So the dog does not know which rover he is to listen to.
So two ways to get around this stop using his name in chatter. ei "looking rover is so cute do you not think rover is cute oh rover is just to stinking cute.I think rover is the cutes dog in hte world. rover needs a treat, rover sit"
Which rover was rover to respond to and look at you and come. how is poor rover to know
Either say he or a baby name like sweetie pie or as I call one dog princes puddle butt... everyone knows which she is but when I say jem come she knows I want her.

Or use the rover in day to day speech and do what else I do with some is use a call name I only use with them so Luc come not lucy.
Yelling does not work try the oposite very soft and you may get a batter responce dog hear very well and learn to tune us out try low and slow.
On the sit wait him out....he knows and he is waiting his seoncd and third cue and only on his second or thrid cue the step into is he going to sit. SO wait grab the clicker and wait him out even if it takes 15 mintues just once and wiat so that you can get it back on one cue the word and a quick butt to ground sit.
Once that happens shape it from 15 mintues to a fast sit and down and make sure you bonce a fast sit on on request. Make sence.

He making sure those big guys stay away so give yourself more room betweem them and you and work loook at me but you know do not ask.
Just catch and click the action do not ask and you will get it faster on always look at mum rather then only when asked.
Temar Gellar is a good little dog trainer and one that got some great stuff but if you want to go up a step look into the stuff by paul owen. I am not saying Temar does anything wrong she just good basics you are ready for the next up the ladder.
JL

First sorry my spelling is just way off today.

Second what caught me eye was you post title Training verse life lessons.

I understand the thought behind it. there are the needed skills like come and down and do not eat the vet and then the fun ones like spin or rollover but what I like to have you change thoughts on is that all of them are life skills.
Everything you teach your dog helps it cope in life yes even a spin. For my girl it became her default skill. If I can not cope and Mum is not seeing i am in trouble spin. I get a treat if I spin. For my girl downing in public is nothing more then pure torture for her, so we swtiched to a give me a spin if you are spinning you can not go after tha dog, human, squiral or car.
Going up a rampp for agility may lead to having to use a ramp when a dog gets older or lame ir to heavy to lift.

Also the more that you teach the happier they are and the more brain power and the more you wear them out.
Training by clicker and using the brain when training by clicker burns off engry as much as going for a walk and in the winter when it is to cold out train baby train.

JL

Okay, let me ask you this then. If I have a treat in my hand, Thor Sits on command so fast, I swear I can hear his butt hit the ground. It really seems to me that he evaluates (1) the liklihood of receiving a treat; then (2) the quality of the treat. If #1 or #2 seem uncertain, he takes his sweet time deciding whether he's going to listen to me.

I have tried adding in other types of rewards, for instance, before leaving our building for a walk he has to Sit. In situations where I regularly tell him to Sit, like a walk, or when I am un/loading my car, he has after weeks and weeks started Sitting, I think out of habit. It's not 100% by any means.

So, what would you say is most effective here? I don't want him deciding whether or not he Sits at a crosswalk, often taking the entire span of the traffic light change to Sit! Here is something Aloff said was a weakness of positive reinforcement, and I agree: Want To versus Have To.

I do think he's listening to me, it's just if I don't have a powerful motivator, I come after he evaluates all the cars, people and dogs going by.

Now you got me thinking.

Part of it is getting them on random reinforcement fast. Do you know what that is? if not when I get back from the dog show will go over it. just do not want to cover ground you know.

I do not think it is a weakness if you get a dog on ranbom and fast so that they never know when a treat is coming or if or what, they tend to drop faster.

Also check what you are using as reward make sure it is how do I say this top drawer goods and try having them off you. SO say for one dog a pice of kibble is to die for for another sheep poop or my girl loves vanilla yougert drops. change them regulaer and also do a mixed bag so they never know what grand treat they get.

Also off you so put a stash somewhere.. I know it will not work on walks.... that you have to step away from the dog to get.

Also dogs do not genralize... so it is that sit in the kitchen does not mean sit in the car does not mean sit at that light or even the next.
You have to teach it over and over and over and over for them to get sit means sit everywhere. So go back and teach it just like when a puppy each and every time and then get it on random.

I had a thought late last night and am surprised I still remeber it.,, it was have a look at contorl unleashed and I can not remeber the trainers name. Great book.
You may just find that it works better. It for not aggressive dogs it for those that can not for the life of themselves find focus.
Also I would track down Protocl for relaxation it also helps with focus and usually can be found at K( aggression site but they may have tucked it away.

JL

Okay, thank you! I am definitely having trouble with random reinforcement. BTW, I know you are not a fan ;), but Brenda Aloff had some good pointers on random reinforcement. One, that it is one of the hardest things to learn, which I am finding to be true, and also, to expect the behavior to get a little shaky after you introduce it.

I'll take a look at the books you recommended.

Did you try taking the treats on walks and having him sit while he is leashed?

Yes, I have treats on me 99% of the time.

ok. Have you done the sit on the leash in the house where there are less distractions? I give a little snap on the leash when he isn't focused, then say sit.

Yes, we practice Sit everywhere. I generally try NILF. He's a weirdo. Like, it's hard for him to jump on the couch, so he usually asks me to help him up. I tell him Sit first, and he'll think about it, and then either Sit, or decide it's easier to stuggle up onto the couch on his own.

LOL, I love Thor stories. He sounds like he totally has a mind of his own! :cool:

That is definitely true! A coat of white on the outside, and a heart of pure darkness within.

Brenda's pulled good info from other sources and popped them in a book.

that is just fine and I have no difficulty looking at her stuff and using what I can. Just did not want you to think she hangs the moon when I know she got taht other side. I did not want you to get to a class and be in the mess I was. Fore armed is prepared.

Ok you need to give me a little more detail on this dog. Age and what is it up to?
if it aggression got a few more really ood people and books worth the read but I not tossing out na,es and titles before I know it it actual aggression or just flaky wild behaviour.

I just picked up a new title today that is the prestep to control unleash as we just are not ready for that one no matter what I try with this girl.
You know giving him the choose to sit then get help is a great thing nad yet another thought...check if he can not get on the couch on his own is he in pain somewhere that may make it hard to sit and he would rather not?

just a ??? as sometimes it is physical in why a dog does what it does.
Example greyhounds just wold rather not sit it physically hard for them.
Guys with bad hips some rather not down. You work around it. Just a thought.

JL

Why do you snap a leash?

Some of these guys that lack focus find that even more distracting and will just dance more instead of responding as they should.

JL

The last thing I would have guessed was that it hurt to Sit, but I just tried switching the command to Down, and it's like a different dog. He obeys instantly. That would explain why he dithers about getting help onto the couch too.

Of course, now I'm wondering IS he in pain? What could it be? Should I take him to the vet? He is only three years old. :confused:

Yes take him to the vet always rule out thyroid and pain causes for aggression as it helps with the training.

Ok not sure of the breed but if he is a big dog I get those hips checked we have a big boy that is cranky as he at 18 months has hip dsyplaiz.. I know that is not spelt right but I know you can guess.

You know I hunting in the dark with out age and breed well not breed so much but what are you seeing as aggression or problems??
JL

He's only 4 lbs, and 3 years old. I may have spoken too quickly, Down is kind of variable too. I'll try a couple other ones, like Spin, and see if there's a noticible difference. Thanks.

Ok do not rule out pain... my 10 pounder has hip concerns. it shows up in a skip when she walks and she has seen a speicalist and is on glucosimne. No it is not the knee it is in her hip.

Do not worry about varialbe. remeber they do not genralize. work on it slow and lots, it takes at the least 100 times.. ok that just a number that I am using to tell you lots of times for them to get what you want and it to pop into the memory and stick. Plus just when that is about to happens it all goes to pot and you wonder what is going on. Just start back at the start and reteach it each time witll get faster and better. Ok usually.
Some of these guys have a glich in the wiring when things go from short term to long term memory and they loose it as it tranfers. Make sence??

JL

I must admit I haven't read everything in this thread and I am far from a dog training expert. But I the first thing I taught Capone was his name and sit. When I taught him his name I would say "Capone" and look him in the eye and give him a treat. over and over. I had friends call his name and when he cam he got a treat. Then I started saying "Capone come here" and praise. So know he always comes to me if I say "Capone come here". He might even think thats his full name :) Sit is the only other command Capone knows and he does it on command. I think the random reward is the way he learned even though I didn't know thats what I was doing at the time. As we all know it just takes time and patience. You've motivated me to start teaching Capone more tricks again.

I love your Thor's colors, he's a handsome little thing! And he's so smart to know so many commands! Good Luck.