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-   -   Dominance/Alpha/Alpha Rolls (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-training-questions/169544-dominance-alpha-alpha-rolls.html)

Ladymom 04-15-2009 08:12 PM
Dominance/Alpha/Alpha Rolls
 
I know many people still use the alpha roll in spite of the fact that it is considered outdated and potentially dangerous. Even the Monks of New Skete, who introduced it in the 1970's, have stated that it was never intended to be used by dog owners, but only by professional trainers in the most extreme cases.

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

Britster 04-16-2009 06:13 AM
Eh, I think it works in certain instances. You shouldn't be obsessive about it and constantly be rolling your dog on their back for every little wrong thing they do. But IF a dog needs to be put in it's place for aggression or an issue of that sorts.. I think it's necessary and works. It just kind of gets them to relax eventually and calm down. But I do agree with certain points in that article.

chachi 04-16-2009 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2580033)
Eh, I think it works in certain instances. You shouldn't be obsessive about it and constantly be rolling your dog on their back for every little wrong thing they do. But IF a dog needs to be put in it's place for aggression or an issue of that sorts.. I think it's necessary and works. It just kind of gets them to relax eventually and calm down. But I do agree with certain points in that article.
I agree. The alpha roll did work for me with Chachi one time when he was food aggressive and he never did it again so it must have got the point accross that it was unacceptable

Ladymom 04-16-2009 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britster (Post 2580033)
Eh, I think it works in certain instances. You shouldn't be obsessive about it and constantly be rolling your dog on their back for every little wrong thing they do. But IF a dog needs to be put in it's place for aggression or an issue of that sorts.. I think it's necessary and works. It just kind of gets them to relax eventually and calm down. But I do agree with certain points in that article.
The whole premise of the Alpha Roll was proven wrong, that wolves don't forcibly roll one another onto their back. Rolling onto the back is voluntary submissiveness.

The only time one dog rolls another onto it's back is to tear its guts out to kill it. Can you imagine what message you are sending to your dog if you so that? That is why the Alpha Roll can make a dog aggressive and owners are often bitten.

Again, the group that developed the Alpha Roll, the Monks of New Skete, have since clarified that it should never be used by owners as a training method!

Britster 04-16-2009 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladymom (Post 2580042)
The whole premise of the Alpha Roll was proven wrong, that wolves don't forcibly roll one another onto their back. Rolling onto the back is voluntary submissiveness.

The only time one dog rolls another onto it's back is to tear its guts out to kill it. Can you imagine what message you are sending to your dog if you so that? That is why the Alpha Roll can make a dog aggressive and owners are often bitten.

Again, the group that developed the Alpha Roll, the Monks of New Skete, have since clarified that it should never be used by owners as a training method!
Yes, but the article also states that dogs are NOT wolves. So what if it proves a different point to a family pet, not a wild animal?

I, personally, have never used the method but I haven't had to. I do think it CAN work in certain instances like Chachi stated above. ^^

JoeyP 04-17-2009 09:24 AM
The term Alpha in a dog owner - dog relationship is a misnomer
But you ARE the owner and to have a good relationship with any dog you have to show dominance

It is done by demeanor ... by tone of voice
Body language
and by what you let your dog do and get away with

What you need to be able to do to know if you have the right hierarchy in your household is

*You should be able to

Touch or take away your doug's food or possessions at any time
Bath them or brush them without them running away or vocalizing
Open their mouths and inspect their teeth

These are touching points when it comes to canines
and shows if you can do them ... that your dog trusts you

kathy_caribe 05-06-2009 09:16 PM
Wow, thanks for this. A good friend of mine (who has a Dobie and 2 mexican street dogs) highly recommended this method if my Yorkie (Kilo) showed aggression. I've used it 3 times - each time when Kilo would growl at a kid trying to take a toy away - but I really never felt it "worked". I did pin him up against the wall once and he immediately dropped the rawhide (which we no longer use after reading that they are dangerous here). I'll read the article but have no hope to get a clicker down here.

QuickSilver 05-06-2009 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathy_caribe (Post 2611953)
Wow, thanks for this. A good friend of mine (who has a Dobie and 2 mexican street dogs) highly recommended this method if my Yorkie (Kilo) showed aggression. I've used it 3 times - each time when Kilo would growl at a kid trying to take a toy away - but I really never felt it "worked". I did pin him up against the wall once and he immediately dropped the rawhide (which we no longer use after reading that they are dangerous here). I'll read the article but have no hope to get a clicker down here.
kathy_caribe, it sounds like you are describing resource guarding. You might want to do some research on this term (there are good threads on here, or you can just google it). Also, you can order a clicker online - they should only be a couple bucks a piece. In fact, you don't even need the clicker, it's just that it's a distinctive noise. One YT member clicks her tongue - it's all natural. :)

Ladymom 05-07-2009 05:59 AM
The Nothing in Life is Free is an excellent program for dogs who are resource guarding as it puts you back in charge of the resources.

Nothing in Life is Free

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

ARCHIE 05-07-2009 06:29 AM
I found that article to be very informative. Thank you for posting it.
I, for one, could never use this method. Buddy is too big and for
sure I would have gotten bitten at some point. Instead I did all the
other thing's written and still do on a daily basis. This method
may work on a 3lb dog but in no way will it work on a 16lb dog.
Common sence tells you that. I find it truly amazing how I never
new there were rules on Alpha. Having a 86lbs GS and a 22lb. Terrier
I never had any kind of problems in my household. A dog was a dog
and that was it. Part of the family and cared for as such.
I get a 6.5lb Yorkie and I have to re-educated myself because he
want's to take over my life:D

QuickSilver 05-07-2009 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARCHIE (Post 2612330)
I found that article to be very informative. Thank you for posting it.
I, for one, could never use this method. Buddy is too big and for
sure I would have gotten bitten at some point. Instead I did all the
other thing's written and still do on a daily basis. This method
may work on a 3lb dog but in no way will it work on a 16lb dog.
Common sence tells you that. I find it truly amazing how I never
new there were rules on Alpha. Having a 86lbs GS and a 22lb. Terrier
I never had any kind of problems in my household. A dog was a dog
and that was it. Part of the family and cared for as such.
I get a 6.5lb Yorkie and I have to re-educated myself because he
want's to take over my life:D
I TOTALLY know what you mean! Thor is 4 lbs, and is the only dog I've had that after months of training, still won't Sit on the first command (unless I have a treat in my hand. :rolleyes:). I don't subscribe to the alpha theory - I believe that dogs genuinely see us as mommies and daddies, and themselves as the baby wolves. It's a subtle distinction, but it still requires us to enforce discipline. I do believe in NILiF, and practice it in many areas (probably need to do it in all areas though).


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