Yesssss! I majored in learning and behavior, so I'm familiar with reward, punishment, target behavior, and the theory involved, however, I don't know much about the specifics of dog training, just that it's important to train correctly, because unlearning a behavior is more difficult that learning one. What I'm trying to say, is yes, you're correct, I should say the "yes" faster, more like a clicker, to reward just the target behavior. Thanks again, for all your tips.

[QUOTE=Nancy1999;2249272]Yesssss! I majored in learning and behavior, so I'm familiar with reward, punishment, target behavior, and the theory involved, however, I don't know much about the specifics of dog training, QUOTE]

Happy to give tips and share it good for me.

So we are talking operant and classical conditioning and skinner and Pavlov both run hand in hand and if you can do it for humans it all the same for dogs.

With clicker you have a little more room to make a mistake you can ignore a thing wrongly marked and it will extinguish at upper levels of training dogs or anything it not forgiving as much.

Yes it is..... I can work clicker without the click and get human kids to respond. I work learning theory with them.... Follow this I have a two year old who nos right left and center. I whip out a bunch of M and Ms cause I want and need her to get ready to go outside... No no no so I eat and M and M go get your shoes on, please... on no no no I eat another no I using what is called Negative punishment to get her to respond... she looks at me and the shoes and the M and M and figures it out.. She gets her shoes on and I pass her a handful of M and Ms the next time she says no she looks at me and stops and goes and does what I ask to see what in it for her this time it a simple thank you and a pat on the back no M and Ms but now I have a human child doing as I asked. It not bribery as I do not offer the item with a do it and you can have it nor to I give something all the time.. it a do as asked ans maybe something comes your way.

I went with negative Punishment as I could not get the positive reinforcement in with the Nos and her not doing it what I needed so nothing to positively reinforce. Negative Punishmant is simpley taking away something good or something a person or animal will work for. It sound bad but it a very mild.

I will not use positive punishment on any thing like Cesar does which is really adding something not nice or negative reinforcement which will increase a bad behavior as it taking away the positive punisher which could be a spanking or a in the case of a dog yank or choke chain. Or only scolding when doing bad things.

Now in dogs when I need a negative punishment I send my dog to its kennel it is a mild reminder that it needs not jump on anyone coming in the door or I make her back and down if she jumps at a ball in someones hand. I may increas a wait at the top of the stairs if it forgets and moves down the stairs before I get down.

Best book to get this all clear and understood is Pam Rieds book but in know not the name at this time as it on my home computer. Pam Dennisons book The complete idiot's guide to postive dog training is a good book just ignore she says dogs are pack animals she a little slow in that area.

I loss you yet.

JL

Actually, I understood what you said perfectly, and sometimes people get the terms negative and positive confused, and even some experts use the words incorrectly. Most people think of negative as something bad, or positive as something good, so when using these words with people who don't understand learning theory, it can be easily misinterpreted. We learned that negative was taking something away, and positive was giving something. Also, a reinforcer was anything that increased the probability of a response, and a punishment was anything that decreased the probability of a response, at least that how my school taught it. When you say the word "punishment" around some people, they go nuts, and think you are mistreating your animal. But like I said before, I understand the theory much better than the application.

Very good so now we can talk at a whole different level and confuse the stuffing out of everyone... No just kidding. Come on that was funny.:D

It is all the same for dogs and children so if you got a handle on it for kids then use it on the dogs. So when you say " I don't know much about the specifics of dog training" you do too you just did not know you did.

All you have to do is bust the thing you want the dog into easy pieces.
So again with kids.. I wanted my five year old to tie his shoes... and he was getting taught the whole and could not do it. So I sat him down and taught him one step at a time in clicker... so do the first knot until you can do it once right... he did and we stopped and the reward was go outside to play.
Next day we did knot and then bunny ear one.... till it was right outside to play.
Next day is two bunny ears... outside to play and so not till the little guy could tie his shoe.

Now for dogs you want a spin

step one dog sits...
step two dog looks left.. click treat
step three dog looks left and you do not treat
step four dog gos MOM look and the head goes left more click treat
step five head turn left to last turn no click
step six Mom you missed it and the head and body move left click treat.
all the way around until you have a spin.
You want to stop a behavior it two ways you teach a behavior that makes the one you do not want unable to happen so sit to greet not jump or wait for barging a door.
Or you teach a go away as someone comes in the house for a treat.
The second is to put the behavior you do not want on cue and then never use the cue.

Follow

JL

PS cool I just wrote my first training plan for dogs and that not easy to do.
You do a plan and set your criteria for rewards and follow it so you know if you are getting what you want done... it not as easy as it looks.
Now I tired and having trouble following the train of thought so I am going to stop for now or I may say it wrong and mess up all our good sharing cause I get fingre tide. Thanks this has been a blast.
It nice to talk at a level I am at or just above me helps me learn and grow.

Lol, you're right that is funny.

It's the breaking the trick in tiny pieces that confuses me. I do most of the training with a food guide. He follows the food and the trick is accomplished, but not everything can be taught that way or I haven't figured out the minute steps. The only other way seems to be waiting for the behavior to occur naturally, and I'm very impatient.

Good news though, we did try the lick tongue to nose trick today, and I was surprised how well, it went. He was trying about everything and accidentally stuck his tongue out, so I quickly gave a "yes," He repeated a bowing behavior when I asked for the tongue again, but then stuck out his tongue, again I caught it immediately, and then he just caught on really fast, and was licking his nose in no time. So, I've learned to be more precise in my use of Yes, but now I want an M&M. :D

I would love to read your training plan, I guess writing it would be difficult because you would have to be so precise in conveying the information, yet understandable to someone who wasn't thoroughly educated in learning theory. :rolleyes:

So what ou are doing is luring and in true clicker there is no lure... it is not wrong at all > I lure too ( hand spank there from my mentor). But to true shape you wait for the dog to offer.
What a really good book try Lads to the wind by Karen Pryor oh baby now that is pure clicker.

Sorry I can not pass you and M&M to you but I have a freind that gave me a standing order for choclate anytime I got something right I was to fill it. So concider you have one now too.

Way to go !!

JL

these are great tips and techniques. I was looking to add some their their learning. Thanks. I still have to try the back up that Nancy1999 suggested. I eventually want them to be able to catch a frisbee. I actually found small plastic frissbees that are their size at Dollar tree.

It's been a bear trying to train/teach Maggie with Hot Rod wanting the treats too. I have actually been able to get them to some of the tricks in unison. it is really cute when it works, especially the roll over.

Thanks for the additional tricks.

My sisters friends lil dog prays...lol its the cutiest thing... My sisters friend tells her dog...Oh no daddys gone to jail what we gonna do and the dog puts his lil paws together like he is saying a prayer ...it is so cute and she said it took her 2 days to teach him to do it.:aimeeyork

Oh, I would love to see that!

And so would I too.
Vidoe tape ???

JL

wow, this topic is starting to grow~
I am loving it!!
I will have fun teaching Choco all the tricks that you guys suggested.
But don't forget to put some details and tips on how, since I am not sure on what exactly the tricks are supposed to be...

Thank you guys for posting~
Love you all :thumbs up

:exclaim:P.S
Please keep posting more ideas. And I hope it helps other people, not only me (it seems like other ppl are already learning from this thread, yay!)

Sirius Dog training offers a class called "Trix", and another class called "dancing with Dogs". I might take milu when she is older.

Sirius Dog Training - Class Descriptions

Dr. Dunbars group is great. Free styl is what dancing is call and it can be competitive as well as just for fun

JL

I have a quick question about the classes, have you tried any? I just took Milu to Puppy I, and I am curious as to how the other classes are. Do you know? Thank you :):):)

Joey took the trick training class at Petsmart. I needed to learn how you get a dog to do a specific trick. What are the exact steps? Petsmart does most of its training using a food lead, they don't believe you should use your hands to prompt the position, for example forcing a dog to sit, but instead, place the food above their head and slightly back, and the dog is "led" to sit. Give the reward, and repeat this, only after the dog has done the task several times do you link a word with it, and only repeat the word once. Although this is hard, you'll want to say "sit, sit, sit." Most of the tricks are taught that way, we had tried to teach Joey to roll over before the class, and sometimes he did it, but it was hit and miss, after learning how to use the food lead, rolling over was easy to link with the word roll over. You place the food in you hand and lead your hand, the dog automatically follows your hand and performs the trick. There are probably some good books that will show you the step-by-step process. We wanted to use Petsmart because we felt that the socialization was good for him, as well. Remember, they don't teach the dog the trick, they teach you how to teach the dog, and how well your dog does, depends on how much time you spend training per day. Several 5-10 minutes sessions are better than 1 long session.