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-   -   How to phase out treats? (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/general-training-questions/117164-how-phase-out-treats.html)

PrincessDiana 02-17-2008 11:04 AM
How to phase out treats?
 
Since we've had Franklin (a little bit over a month), I've been working with him a couple of times a day on "sit". Yesterday, he finally got it! When I get out a treat, he jumps up 2-3 times to smell the treat (to see if it's worth sitting for, I guess :rolleyes: ), and then he sits. It's really pretty cute.

However, I want to start phasing out the treat.. but it doesn't work because when I don't have a treat, he doesn't smell it and he's not interested! How did you guys do it? I've read a lot about clicker training.. but I can't phase out the treat (and click) because he only does it for a treat. Does this make sense?

I want to start on other tricks too, but we have to "sit" down pat first.

Gracie2006 02-17-2008 11:16 AM
Have you associated hand signals with the commands? If not, you should do that before trying to phase out the treats. My puppy school teacher said to just up the anty. So, in a session, if you take baby through four sits, reward the first two, give nothing but lots of praise and some play on 3 and then reward again on 4. Gradually increase the number of praises and reduce the number of food treats. The praise and play has to be just important to him as the food treat. How old is Franklin?

PrincessDiana 02-17-2008 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracie2006 (Post 1772054)
Have you associated hand signals with the commands? If not, you should do that before trying to phase out the treats. My puppy school teacher said to just up the anty. So, in a session, if you take baby through four sits, reward the first two, give nothing but lots of praise and some play on 3 and then reward again on 4. Gradually increase the number of praises and reduce the number of food treats. The praise and play has to be just important to him as the food treat. How old is Franklin?
No I have not associated a hand signal, we've only been using the verbal command. What hand signal do you use?

marcerella02 02-17-2008 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 1772129)
No I have not associated a hand signal, we've only been using the verbal command. What hand signal do you use?
we use hand signals as well

for Sit- I hold my hand in a fist and start with it at my waist and raise it up to my chest area now i don't even have to say Sit... i just use the and command

for Lay down- my hand is still in a fist- i start with it roughly around her nose (just at that level.. doesn't have to be near her.. but you might need to start with that for Franklin) and then i lower it to the ground

For Stay- i just put a flat palm in front of her face

and for Wait (like if i am going to open the door adn i watn to go out first and i want her to wait.... ) i use an open palm and make an arc (i guess like i'm waving good bye) in front of her.

You'll have to use both the signals and the treat for a while.. but soon you wil only have to use the hand signals... when i want Layla to stay i still say STAY and use the hand command

Suzy 02-17-2008 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcerella02 (Post 1772172)
we use hand signals as well

for Sit- I hold my hand in a fist and start with it at my waist and raise it up to my chest area now i don't even have to say Sit... i just use the and command

for Lay down- my hand is still in a fist- i start with it roughly around her nose (just at that level.. doesn't have to be near her.. but you might need to start with that for Franklin) and then i lower it to the ground

For Stay- i just put a flat palm in front of her face

and for Wait (like if i am going to open the door adn i watn to go out first and i want her to wait.... ) i use an open palm and make an arc (i guess like i'm waving good bye) in front of her.

You'll have to use both the signals and the treat for a while.. but soon you wil only have to use the hand signals... when i want Layla to stay i still say STAY and use the hand command
We do this too-hand signals actually work better than verbal commands... Cesar Milan talks about this on his shows, that dogs actually receive information with their nose, eyes, and THEN their ears. So, a visual command is going to be quicker to teach than an audible command.

I agree with Gracie2006 on phasing out the treats on every other command or so. We did this with our two-and they will do ANYTHING to get that treat :) If we want to, we can get them to do 10+ things before they get a treat.

Gracie2006 02-17-2008 12:22 PM
Re hand signals, for sit I hold a treat by their nose, then gradually move backward. In an attempt to follow the treat, the dog will sit. Eventually, you can use the same hand motion without the treat. For down, I hold the treat at the nose and then slowly lower it to the floor. When the dog goes down, I give the treat. Again, eventually you can use the same motion without the treat. I have always used the combination of hand signal, verbal command and treat.

PrincessDiana 02-17-2008 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracie2006 (Post 1772248)
Re hand signals, for sit I hold a treat by their nose, then gradually move backward. In an attempt to follow the treat, the dog will sit. Eventually, you can use the same hand motion without the treat. For down, I hold the treat at the nose and then slowly lower it to the floor. When the dog goes down, I give the treat. Again, eventually you can use the same motion without the treat. I have always used the combination of hand signal, verbal command and treat.
Yeah I use these same signals (with the treat in my hand)... so I guess I have been using hand signals..oops. However.. like I said, if there is no treat, he's not interested. Before he sits.. he jumps up twice to smell it and check to make sure there's actually a treat... and then he sits. He gets it, because we do it with his toys as well but if there is no reward in sight, no sit.

Any suggestions? :confused:

marcerella02 02-17-2008 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 1774097)
Yeah I use these same signals (with the treat in my hand)... so I guess I have been using hand signals..oops. However.. like I said, if there is no treat, he's not interested. Before he sits.. he jumps up twice to smell it and check to make sure there's actually a treat... and then he sits. He gets it, because we do it with his toys as well but if there is no reward in sight, no sit.

Any suggestions? :confused:
ooo you have a smart one ;) i'm no help.. sorry... i'm sure Gracie2006 wil have sgugestions :) i love when she posts because she is so knowledgable about so many things!

For My Coby 02-17-2008 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDiana (Post 1774097)
Yeah I use these same signals (with the treat in my hand)... so I guess I have been using hand signals..oops. However.. like I said, if there is no treat, he's not interested. Before he sits.. he jumps up twice to smell it and check to make sure there's actually a treat... and then he sits. He gets it, because we do it with his toys as well but if there is no reward in sight, no sit.

Any suggestions? :confused:
We use hand signals too. But I might suggest one thing. Once he learns the command, I don't let Coby get close enough to tell if I have a treat or not. If he's jumping up trying to smell the treat, try pulling your hand quickly out of reach (or smell). He needs to learn to TRUST that there's a treat there or WAIT to see if there's a treat. He can't set the rules for obeying - you get to. Once trying to phase out treats, a trainer once said that you should still randomly give a treat once in a while just to reinforce the drive to obey you.

All that being said, mine still get treats for pottying (after they potty, one barks and the other begs to tell us that they pottied - Reggie is 11 years old!!) and Coby still gets one for going to his kennel on command (or when he sees me get my coat on). But for many other commands, they just get treats once in a while.

marcerella02 02-17-2008 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by For My Coby (Post 1774177)
We use hand signals too. But I might suggest one thing. Once he learns the command, I don't let Coby get close enough to tell if I have a treat or not. If he's jumping up trying to smell the treat, try pulling your hand quickly out of reach (or smell). He needs to learn to TRUST that there's a treat there or WAIT to see if there's a treat. He can't set the rules for obeying - you get to. Once trying to phase out treats, a trainer once said that you should still randomly give a treat once in a while just to reinforce the drive to obey you.

All that being said, mine still get treats for pottying (after they potty, one barks and the other begs to tell us that they pottied - Reggie is 11 years old!!) and Coby still gets one for going to his kennel on command (or when he sees me get my coat on). But for many other commands, they just get treats once in a while.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: ya... that :)

PrincessDiana 02-17-2008 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by For My Coby (Post 1774177)
We use hand signals too. But I might suggest one thing. Once he learns the command, I don't let Coby get close enough to tell if I have a treat or not. If he's jumping up trying to smell the treat, try pulling your hand quickly out of reach (or smell). He needs to learn to TRUST that there's a treat there or WAIT to see if there's a treat. He can't set the rules for obeying - you get to. Once trying to phase out treats, a trainer once said that you should still randomly give a treat once in a while just to reinforce the drive to obey you.

All that being said, mine still get treats for pottying (after they potty, one barks and the other begs to tell us that they pottied - Reggie is 11 years old!!) and Coby still gets one for going to his kennel on command (or when he sees me get my coat on). But for many other commands, they just get treats once in a while.
Good idea! I hadn't thought about just not even showing him the treat. We'll try that and see how it works.. Thank you! :)


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