Thanks again, Tami!! This is exactly what I was trying to describe. Should they have this with each puppy? I don't know if Madi had this with the first puppy because I was asleep when she had that one, but she did not have it with any others except the second one...normal??

Tammy

Tami,

Have you found that in some whelpings this never occurs and they are clean as a whistle after delivery? For instance with Go-Go's first litter, nothing, but with her 2nd her dicharge continued for over 6 weeks.

Back to the OP's question.....:rolleyes:

So if one DOES experience the green BEFORE the 1st pup...one should wait how long to call the vet? I'm guessing this would be ASAP, at first sighting then, correct?

I've only had experience with Roxie so far but she does get the whelping box pretty messy. Teddi arrived at my home from a kennel in Kentucky a few weeks after weaning and still had discharge which makes me wonder. Some dogs are just really clean like my Remi, you can't hardly tell when she's in heat. She should have her first litter the last week in Aug. so we'll see how that goes. She won't even go in her crate unless it's perfectly clean.

Immediately....once again, odor and consistency are also a determining factor

If there is lochia present before the first pup than the placenta has already separated and yes there is cause for concern. The pup needs to be delivered promptly after the placenta separates.

I'd never experienced the extreme difference before in the same dam.....both times a POP shot was given. Go-Go is also very clean, and hates to having anything out of place and being dirty. Of course she's had a bath every week of her life since she was 8 weeks of age and sometimes 5 on a weekend during her show career.

With her last litter I had her vet checked 4 times, because of the discharge....he did smears and nothing, put her on antibiotics as a precautionary measure

Yes, Mary, I don't like getting upset with people but when someone just keeps on and on attacking, they do finally step on that last nerve. lol I'm going to try and continue to bite the bullet and just ignore these things. I am sorry that I let this person finally get to me. Life is too short to argue with someone that can't hear you.. This thread has been extremely informative and I hope everyone will continue to share and learn from others experiences. We can never stop learning..

And,.....our baby, Charmer Junior "CJ". came thru with flying colors! Just can't wait till he's home this afternoon so I can shower him with more love and kisses.

And did you get him a new toy for having to go through his ordeal?

Make sure the vet prescribes antibiotic for him.

This is very good information especially for us newbies that are just learning. I dont have a sense of smell so I dont have that to lean on but at least I know what to look for now and when to be alarmed. I have seen the green at delivery and afterwards for a day or so on the sheets but I am guessing since it was just a tiny amount that it is ok.
Everyone has the right to give their own opinion and even though it isnt our opinion or the way we see things a good discusion about it is always helpful and interesting. I dont like seeing these harmless discussions turn ugly and it takes away from what it should be about and that is learning. IT also makes people afraid to post what their experiences or thought are and that is really too bad.

CO_yorkie_momma,you are totally right!

And, Mary, he got 2 new toys! (And I will make sure and get the meds for him)

Tell Fanci to stay out of the trash......or she can't share CJ's toys. Bet she misses being an only child and not having a pesky tattle tail younger brother.

Thanks for the great info...Shawn yorkiesjs

The following is an excerpt from:
L. Ari Juckowitz, VMD. Reproductive Emergencies; Veterinary Clinics Small Animals. Volume 35:pg 397-420.


Box 2. Criteria for the suspicion of dystocia
1. A definite cause is visible (ie, fetus lodged in birth canal,
pelvic fractures).
2. Gestation is prolonged (>70 days) with no evidence of labor.
3. Temperature has dropped to lower than 100
F and returned
to normal with no evidence of labor.
4. Green vaginal discharge (indicates placental separation) or
fetal fluids are seen, and 2 hours have elapsed without
expulsion of fetuses.
5. Strong and persistent contractions fail to result in the
delivery of a puppy within 30 minutes.
6. Weak and infrequent contractions fail to produce a fetus
within 4 hours.
7. More than 4 hours have elapsed since the birth of a puppy,
with no evidence of ongoing labor.
8. Signs of systemic illness or severe pain are presen

Green Fluid
 

This is an excerpt from Vet Notes.
Determination of dystocia

Questions to ask:

* Obvious malpresentation?
* First stage > 12 hours, second stage weak and intermittent > 2 to 3 hours, second stage hard > 30 minutes, > 2 hours between pups?
* Abnormal vulvar discharge? Pus, frank hemorrhage, green fluid (denotes placental separation)
* Rectal temperature decline > 24 hours ago?
* Signs of labor not progressing?
* Systemic illness in bitch?
* Prolonged gestation?
* High risk pregnancy? (Previous pelvic trauma or dystocia)

Presentation:

* History

- Previous disease or trauma
- Breeding dates
- History of previous whelpings
- Pups and progress at this whelping
- Temperature drop data
- Treatment thus far

* Physical examination

- General examination
- Abdominal palpation
- Digital vaginal examination
- Lateral abdominal radiographs
- Uterine monitors (WhelpWise)


Treatment of dystocia

Manipulative
* Feathering
* Digital manipulation
* Instruments

Pharmacologic agents
* Oxytocin - Oxytocin acts as an ecbolic (causes uterine contraction). It may cause premature placental separation and should not be used in obstructive dystocia. Dose = 2 to 5 IU at 20 to 30 minute intervals, for no more than 3 to 4 doses if not effective.
* Calcium
* Glucose

So does this mean that it is okay to see the green before the birth as long as the puppy is born within 2 hours of seeing it? Good information to have. Thank you.

I am not an expert. In my opinion, I would be concerned anytime I saw it because the placenta is what supplies blood and oxygen to the puppy. When the placenta seperates then oxygen is cut off. I would rather be overcautious than sorry, but that is my personal opinion.The info I posted came from veterinary journals so they are the experts. Experienced breeders say it is not Ok before a puppy is born and it is Ok after the first puppy is born. Foul odor means a vet trip and lots of green fluid means a vet trip is what I understood. From what I read, I believe that it depends on the quantity and consistency. In other words a small green discharge after the first pup is delivered is OK accoding to the posts from experienced breeders. Large amounts of green fuid is not OK according to the veterinary literature. And of course a foul odor could mean an infection and needs to checked right away. If it were my dam, I would call the vet, if I saw green fluid, but that is just my cautious opinion.

In all 3 of my litters there was dark green coloring. Not alot but you could see it on the gloves and the towels and sheets. You could also see if for a few days afterwards. I assumed that was the color that the afterbirth was supposed to be. It was not like a solid green and didnt even look green but the stains left on things were dark green so you knew the green was there. Does that make sense?

With our litters, there has always been some greenish fluid present. And also during the early stages of whelping. (an hour or so ahead of actual whelping, maybe) Not much and no foul odor. And the stuff does NOT come out of anything no matter how many times you wash it.:rolleyes:
I was taught and have always been under a very similar impression to what Mardelin has described.:thumbup:
Considering that Mardelin is a very accomplished and respected breeder having successfully whelped more litters than I can even count, I'm inclined to take what she says to heart with the knowledge that she speaks from experience, gained after many years of studying the breed and the breeding process as a whole.
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to favor that type of advice over a theory pulled out of a book at random. Anyone can read about something all day long, but it's no subsitute of first hand experience....LOTS of first hand experience in this case.:)

[QUOTE=BamaFan121s;1211507] Not much and no foul odor. And the stuff does NOT come out of anything no matter how many times you wash it.:rolleyes:
Misty, Try Spray and Wash or Shout prior to washing. Then a 1/2 cup of Biz added to your Laundry water.....works great and does get out those pesky birthing fluid stains.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

My knowledge comes from some of the best longtime breeder exhibitors in North America...Who have been doing this countless of years longer than I have with wonderful success in producing wonderful yorkies. It's not to say that they have not encountered problems or things out of the ordinary don't pop up when they are whelping, but I'd bank on their knowledge in whelping any day. As my own wonderful Vet says, whelping is not my expertise, emergency and keeping your dog healthy is. On my first visit to him he stated that every smart a Vet keeps in his contact files specific breeder's numbers so they can turn to those breeders when they encounter problems with a specific breed.

I am certainly not as qualified to speak on this subject as those people who have bred for years. After a puppy is born the placenta separates and is delivered so it would make sense that there could be a small amount of green discharge after the first puppy. Whether that discharge could be indicative of a problem, I do not know. It seems to me that it could be a problem, however, I would like to know if every litter has green discharge. I myself do trust the authoritative journals written by and for small animal veterinarians, after all that is what they go to school for so many years to learn. Many vets do not retain all that information unless they breed themselves so experienced breeders do have a wealth of information which can be a great help. I was just trying to share what I thought was good information.

I appreciate all of the knowledge that my brain can possibly soak up, whether it comes from books or the knowledge of breeders that have the hands on training. I imagine each case is different so it is so helpful to have many different views and personal experiences to keep in the back of my mind for when that time comes that I may need to pull it out and use it. Thanks for your help.

Thanks to you, too.