information on a red leg - Joan Gordon

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by topknot

Thanks Cher! You are a wealth of information. I didn't think that I had missed too much from my break. It all makes sense. I have never bred to a red legged and don't think I ever would (like you said we don't have to now and coat standard is really all half coat). I have seen red legged yorkies before and feel so bad that they will never have a silky long coat. I have the silk coated yorkies at home with that coat to the floor and some shy about 1/2 inch to touch floor and I love it. It is truly something to see, feel/touch - it is like ribbons of silk.
Wouldn't you get a litter of pups - if you bred a silky coat to a red legged some pup with silk and some with red legged, but the all would carry the gene for the red legged.
S x R
SR S R RS

One would assume the red leg is a recessive, if you cross a red to a silk unless the silk is carrying red recessive you should achieve all silk. That being said, I would think one would not consider breeding a red to a red or a red to a modified coat, at best one would have a mixed or all reds. And correct me if I am wrong the blue is actually a black with a graying gene modifier.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by goldenray

You brought it up, we gave our opinion.

No one has said anything about the fact that you should not have done the breeding. Quite obviously I stated that "each breeder has to do what they see as best." Why would you argue a point when we stated our opinion without making any negative comments!

I happen to do judges education for the YTCA, and have been mentor for a great deal of breeders and like to make sure they see there is a difference from many years ago vs now in a breeding program. Again you have chosen your breeding program and that is entirely your choice. NO one here has said a word about your choices, but we as breeders have indicated what we do so the newcomers can also understand there are other ways breeders handle a breeding program. They can then make their own decisions.

Cher there was an entire thread about WHY would I breed a red leg to a champion male, the OP took it upon herself to discredit my breeding choices. The reasons I started this thread is to share some of the why and why nots with others. I think sharing information is how we all learn BUT to make comments like IT IS NOT NECESSARY, may not be necessary for you or some others but maybe necessary or desirable for others to try.

[goldenray]

Originally Posted by topknot

Thanks Cher! You are a wealth of information. I didn't think that I had missed too much from my break. It all makes sense. I have never bred to a red legged and don't think I ever would (like you said we don't have to now and coat standard is really all half coat). I have seen red legged yorkies before and feel so bad that they will never have a silky long coat. I have the silk coated yorkies at home with that coat to the floor and some shy about 1/2 inch to touch floor and I love it. It is truly something to see, feel/touch - it is like ribbons of silk.
Wouldn't you get a litter of pups - if you bred a silky coat to a red legged some pup with silk and some with red legged, but the all would carry the gene for the red legged.
S x R
SR S R RS

Thank you first off. I have not personally ever bred a red leg so have not bothered with any genetic study, nor has the geneticists done a study.

But to quote Joan Gordon on a conversation many years ago (probably 20 LOL) when I was talking to her about breeding to one of her wire coated boys.
"You need to know you will most likely get atleast one black wire puppy." I laughed told her no thanks because that probably would be my most gorgeous one otherwise. LOL

In genetics we also play with plus and minus modifiers as well as a host of other things, so everything is not always simple recessives. No question that a black dog does not carry the graying gene so can not pass it, so all children would pick up the gene genetically, even if blue from the other parent. The coat texture can be quite another story with those modifiers in there as well as other genes affecting other genes.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by goldenray

Thank you first off. I have not personally ever bred a red leg so have not bothered with any genetic study, nor has the geneticists done a study.

But to quote Joan Gordon on a conversation many years ago (probably 20 LOL) when I was talking to her about breeding to one of her wire coated boys.
"You need to know you will most likely get atleast one black wire puppy." I laughed told her no thanks because that probably would be my most gorgeous one otherwise. LOL

In genetics we also play with plus and minus modifiers as well as a host of other things, so everything is not always simple recessives. No question that a black dog does not carry the graying gene so can not pass it, so all children would pick up the gene genetically, even if blue from the other parent. The coat texture can be quite another story with those modifiers in there as well as other genes affecting other genes.

Cher doesnt it all depend on the pedigree of the black whether or not he may be carrying the gray modifier?

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Pat who mentioned it was common place?



Lorraine are you stating youve never breed a black? Also because YOUVE not heard of breeding a red leg, it shouldnt be done?



Cher, youve known breeders that have done this type of breeding and so have I...You state above its NOT necessary anymore...that is your opinion, but it doesnt make it WRONG?

Ladies are you discrediting anyone that would use a red leg in their breeding program? I certainly hope this is not your subtile way to cast doubt on other breeders choices just because YOU PERSONALLY have not heard of this type of breeding or YOU FIND IT NO LONGER NECESSARY!

I can't find anywhere in my post that I said anyone shouldn't breed a red leg. All I was trying to say is that these well known and respected breeders are not using red leg in their breeding program to produce their correct coat and colour. I read both Pat and Cher's post and I don't see anywhere that they said anything about would discredit anyone if you used a red leg. You think you should do it, go for it. Just make sure if you are selling show puppies or stud services you identify in the pedigree that they are there and which ones. Yes along with whatever may be light in colour etc.
When I started out years ago, I didn't know anything about red leg and was told at that time that you need soft coat in your program to get and keep the colour dark and not wash out. Now I know it doesn't work that way.
It is called LEARNING. If anyone wants to try whatever they want far be it from me to stop them I really don't care. I am far too busy worrying about my own dogs and my own breeding program and indeed my own life and direction. I haven't got the energy to worry about yours or anyone else's. The only time someones breeding program gets interesting for me is when I want to get a pup from them or use one of their males for stud service or ask these long long time breeders what they have learned over the years. I also don't mind sharing what I have learned with new people.
What you do or don't do in your breeding program is entirely up to you.
I think from my post, Cher's post and Pat's post, all we are doing is SHARING what we have found to be true. These are people including Rothby and Durrer Pat and Cher that have been in YOrkies close to 30 years and in some cases longer. I have only been in it 10 years but tend to listen to these people that have these lovely representatives of the breed out there as they have already done the learning and laid that foundation for me and anyone else that wants to , to build on. It saves me a heck a lot of time as I can learn from them what might work.

[topknot]

It is just like people and their genes. My husband and I have hazel/blue eyes with dark hair (very dark brown almost black) LOL have to think back since I have been coloring my hair. But my daughter has blond hair (naturally) and hazel/blue eyes. My son has the dark hair and brown eyes. So where did my daughter get blond hair and my son brown eyes? Blond came from my aunt on my father's side and brown eyes came from my grandmother on my father's side. Now get this - my aunt is the only one within 4 generations, beside my daughter with blond hair - both sides. Now I tan easily (due to my great grandmother being Cherokee), but my husband is fair with freckles. Result: my daughter with blond hair easily tans never burns and my dark haired son is fair complexed with some freckles. Crazy - you would not think this would happen. Cher's Quote: In genetics we also play with plus and minus modifiers as well as a host of other things, so everything is not always simple recessives.
T.

[topknot]

This is a learning forum.
I agree with Lorriane about making notication about the puppies' pedigree (relatives) being known about the colors and anything else worth knowing of the parents and relatives -if showing or breeding. I try to get pedigrees (mine) and add photos of the parents and ancestors so I know the coloring (as best as can be) as well as anything else I can find out in photos, but I also go farther by trying to ask the owners and breeders what they know about the dogs and make notes. I want to know as much as I can about the dogs as far back as I can go. All this information is very important to me, than just looking at my dog seperately, especially if I am going to breed and try to find a compatable sire.
T.

[yorkykisses]

Originally Posted by Lorraine

I can't find anywhere in my post that I said anyone shouldn't breed a red leg. All I was trying to say is that these well known and respected breeders are not using red leg in their breeding program to produce their correct coat and colour. I read both Pat and Cher's post and I don't see anywhere that they said anything about would discredit anyone if you used a red leg. You think you should do it, go for it. Just make sure if you are selling show puppies or stud services you identify in the pedigree that they are there and which ones. Yes along with whatever may be light in colour etc.
When I started out years ago, I didn't know anything about red leg and was told at that time that you need soft coat in your program to get and keep the colour dark and not wash out. Now I know it doesn't work that way.
It is called LEARNING. If anyone wants to try whatever they want far be it from me to stop them I really don't care. I am far too busy worrying about my own dogs and my own breeding program and indeed my own life and direction. I haven't got the energy to worry about yours or anyone else's. The only time someones breeding program gets interesting for me is when I want to get a pup from them or use one of their males for stud service or ask these long long time breeders what they have learned over the years. I also don't mind sharing what I have learned with new people.
What you do or don't do in your breeding program is entirely up to you.
I think from my post, Cher's post and Pat's post, all we are doing is SHARING what we have found to be true. These are people including Rothby and Durrer Pat and Cher that have been in YOrkies close to 30 years and in some cases longer. I have only been in it 10 years but tend to listen to these people that have these lovely representatives of the breed out there as they have already done the learning and laid that foundation for me and anyone else that wants to , to build on. It saves me a heck a lot of time as I can learn from them what might work.

Wonderful post! I plan on taking it all in, so I can add this knowledge to my program. I have seen Cher, Roberta & Betty Anne show in person and their yorkies are lovely representations of the breed. I do not feel a person can be kennel blind and achieve the proper qualities to represent this wonderful breed.

[YorkieRose]

Common practice was my term...I wondered since it had alluded me for so many years..but I think I have seen them and they were called "wiry"...at least I have groomed many and that is what I called them...my favorite to groom..trim for 2 mins, bathe for 2 mins, wave them dry for 2 minutes, comb for 20 seconds and home to the owner..LOL

What is bred to what to get one...if a RL is bred to silk and you say all pups will be silk, then what type of coats were bred to get the RL...I think I am too old to not breed "blue silk to blue silk"..in the first place..saves so much unnecessary guessing and work..LOL

[feminvstr]

Thanks for the advice Lorraine. Since Hannah is clearly posted on my website I would be hard pressed to deny she is a red leg to anyone. The speculation will be over soon she is due toward the end of the month and her pups pictures will be updated weekly, if anyone is interested in seeing how a red leg to silk breeding matures.

As to beeding to a black modified you have the chance of getting modifed coat, agreed, Mercedes dad is a modified yet she is a black silk and all her 3 brothers are a dark blue/gray silk. My breeding Mercedes (black silk) with "Harley" (very light gray) all their kids are pure silk not a modified in the bunch, their coats are thick and colors are deepening...theyre about 6 1/2 months old now, heads are clearing from white to gold and all are breaking on their backs.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by topknot

This is a learning forum.
I agree with Lorriane about making notication about the puppies' pedigree (relatives) being known about the colors and anything else worth knowing of the parents and relatives -if showing or breeding. I try to get pedigrees (mine) and add photos of the parents and ancestors so I know the coloring (as best as can be) as well as anything else I can find out in photos, but I also go farther by trying to ask the owners and breeders what they know about the dogs and make notes. I want to know as much as I can about the dogs as far back as I can go. All this information is very important to me, than just looking at my dog seperately, especially if I am going to breed and try to find a compatable sire.
T.

Hi T,
Indeed, I have been very very priviledged as a newbie to be trusted by these long time show breeders and learn from them. They have been very forthright and direct about the good points and negative points of any of their dogs and in those in their pedigrees. They could tell me anything I wanted to know about the dogs and kennel names that were in their pedigrees and what may or may not carry forward and I am talking about many many generations.
I have been helped by their advice when I told them what I had and the best match for my girls when I used their studs. When I bought Tommy, he was the first show dog I bought in almost 10 years. I had improved my line previously by using the best males I could find and felt ready to move into getting my own male with some different lines behind him than what I had.
It has been a long road made alittle shorter with the help of these knowledgable and helpful show breeders.

[topknot]

Keep us updated Kimberely and let us know how it goes. I had meant to say you, because I thought Hannah was yours, but forgot.
I guess I am more like Pat and others (Cher/Lorraine)- breeding silk to silk - I am older too and just returning back to yorkies so time is very important to me - JMO. Now I do have a darker silk coated, but she is still young (6 months) and see her breaking now. And I have one that is also young, but looks like will mature to a lighter silk coat. I know that I need a balance. One thing I have noticed over the years is that if you want great bone stucture - the darker coated yorkies are better at this. Has anyone notice this to be true?
T.

[Lorraine]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Common practice was my term...I wondered since it had alluded me for so many years..but I think I have seen them and they were called "wiry"...at least I have groomed many and that is what I called them...my favorite to groom..trim for 2 mins, bathe for 2 mins, wave them dry for 2 minutes, comb for 20 seconds and home to the owner..LOL

What is bred to what to get one...if a RL is bred to silk and you say all pups will be silk, then what type of coats were bred to get the RL...I think I am too old to not breed "blue silk to blue silk"..in the first place..saves so much unnecessary guessing and work..LOL

I wonder if the red leg are born wiry rather than the regular puppy coat we see on new puppies? I remember about 11 or 12 years ago, an acquaintance had a litter of 3 or 4 pups. One she named Bristles because he had a wiry type of coat practically from birth. This was before there was much internet etc and neither of us knew at the time that a red leg could exist and we didn't know what she had. I have no idea whatever happened to that pup other than she sold him for pet.

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by YorkieRose

Common practice was my term...I wondered since it had alluded me for so many years..but I think I have seen them and they were called "wiry"...at least I have groomed many and that is what I called them...my favorite to groom..trim for 2 mins, bathe for 2 mins, wave them dry for 2 minutes, comb for 20 seconds and home to the owner..LOL

What is bred to what to get one...if a RL is bred to silk and you say all pups will be silk, then what type of coats were bred to get the RL...I think I am too old to not breed "blue silk to blue silk"..in the first place..saves so much unnecessary guessing and work..LOL

Pat I agree the grooming on a red leg is snip, snip, brush and youre done, very low maintance to say the least

I have been breeding this wonderful breed for a short time up until late last year did I ever consider entering the show ring. When I was in search of my first no one would sell their BLUES unless you commited to showing. I had no time in my life to make that kind of commitment nor did I have the desire to show. Many show breeders professed they want to help, but yet when it came down to buying what was called the "standard" it was either fort knox or there way or the highway!

I think the majority of breeders start out this way.

Up until my first breeding with Mercedes and finishing Buster did I even attempt to look at any puppies in my breedings as a show prospect nor did I attempt to place them as such.

Since then some doors have opened and I look forward to a great future!

[topknot]

Good luck Kimberly! And thank you for being so honest. You are right about how hard it is -trying to get that first really nice show prospect/show potential from show breeders.
I was very lucky,the first time - I had great mentors and went to club meetings, people knew I was serious. I went to a lot of shows to learn and studied. This time I had a good reputation from before and knowledge behind me that helped also a big piggy bank. I paid a lot for my babies, but was expecting to pay for what I wanted. Luckily I had opportunities and saved for the money. It all takes time to make forward strides.