It is a shame when people discredit the huge contributions made by these people to the breed by referring to their work as breeder lore and speculation. People who are too lazy to actually do their homework find it easier to condemn those who have by insisting that anyone who presents ideas that they are unaware of are just making it up. Sad really.

Joan Gordon Book
 

For anyone interested - I found Ms Gordon's book, used, on Amazon.com There were several copies available. I have ordered one. This may be the only place this book can be found nowadays since it was published in 1993.
Also of interest is that I paid more for the shipping that I did for the book ($2.98)!:confused:

Pat

book
 

I sold mine on ebay for $70... turned around and bought another one for $3 at a used book store.

There you go, Pat! Gotta love eBay!:thumbup:

This is so interesting. I have never heard of this - I guess just missed it from my readings, but I do only have the older version of their book. I am not sure I would do this, but understand your reason and good that the Wieldeir girls have stated so.
P.S. I am surprised that all yorkie people (study pedigrees, breeders, etc.. novices excluded) do not know about the Wildweir ladies. Their dogs are usually always found in the back of all USA yorkies. I know that regular people that just have yorkies as a pet might not know them, but if you breed you should know about them.
T.

red legs
 

Don't feel bad..I had never heard it either until this year. I have asked many top show breeders how to bring back good rich color when some were getting too light...and not one has ever mentioned a red legs...I was told to breed to the most correct blue and gold to improve color...so I am just as stumped. LOL

PS..I have no doubt read every Yorkie book written..never heard the term Red legs...anyone have an old Ethel Munday or Martello books, what do they say..? My friend, Shirley's mom was good friends with Ethel and she taught her all she knew..no red legs there..I am not trying to start a fuss..seriously, I want to hear breeders like Parkside, Durrers, Stratford, Rothby, Tiffany, Tyava, Goldenray, Blumoom, and more agree this a common practice.

Hi Pat, I know Betty Anne Durrer very well and talked to her about coat and colour. She does not use red leg or black and tan soft coats to keep colour. She consistently keeps dark silk in any of her pups and doesn't keep light colour especially a male in her breeding program. Never keeps a soft coat either.
My Tommy is 3/4 Durrer and I certainly have seen a wonderful improvement in my line in my coat texture and colour in his offspring.
I am certain Roberta also never used red leg in her program either and I very much doubt any of the others you mentioned have used them.
Certainly the Gordon sisters have contributed so much to the world of Yorkies and I would be surprised if anyone who has immersed themselves in the breed wouldn't have heard of them.

Very interesting theory!

Pat, your little guy is a real cutie with his short haircut! Welcome to YT!

Pat I have an old Ethel Munday book but it is still packed away. I am in the process of getting the stuff unpacked so will see what she says about coat and colour when I find it.

Betty Anne Durrer has beautiful yorkshire terriers! I remember when I for the first time seen a Durrer dog show in Fort Wayne Indiana two year ago. Infact it was Peggy Horner's "Durrer's Excell" and what a beautiful boy he was! I do not think I have enjoyed watching a yorkshire terrier show as much as I enjoyed watching him show! I will also add that whatever Betty Anne Durrer and Roberta Rothenbach practice in their breeding programs has had wonderful outcomes! I also enjoy watching the Rothby dogs show.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Gordon sisters. They have contributed an enormous amount to the yorkshire terrier breed. I also own the old version and the new version of their book, they both are wonderful reading!

Hi Pat. You really don't hear about using red legs as a rule anymore because it is not necessary.

Way back when... We had cotton coats, wooly coats, wire coats (red leg category) and some silk coats. You remember the days Pat (dating us here). There were very few silk coats and mostly they were towards the silver hue. Breeders were working hard to get silk coats that were dark blue. They had very little to work with. Some were breeding soft coats to the light silk and some were breeding wire coats to the light silk. This is all they had to work with. Thanks to wonderful breeders like the Wildweir twins, they helped create the Yorkie as we see it today. They didn't have dark blue silk back then, they had to create it, which is what dedicated breeders do.

Now we have dark blue silk and you just breed to the correct dog. Breeding to anything else just brings that incorrect problem into the gene pool. I have never kept a soft coat or wire coat personally. I've never even bred a wire coat and the only soft coats produced here was way back when they had to be used in a breeding program. Why bother, half our standard is coat, so the dog is already half wrong. I breed silk dogs and try at all times to work for the density of color and I get a tremendous amount of dark blue and very few that go medium.

So each breeder has to do what they see as best but in today's world with all our dark blue silk coats, there would be no reason for me to add any other problem coats into my breeding program. So you are quite right Pat, you always just breed to the correct blue/tan.

Thanks Cher! You are a wealth of information. I didn't think that I had missed too much from my break. It all makes sense. I have never bred to a red legged and don't think I ever would (like you said we don't have to now and coat standard is really all half coat). I have seen red legged yorkies before and feel so bad that they will never have a silky long coat. I have the silk coated yorkies at home with that coat to the floor and some shy about 1/2 inch to touch floor and I love it. It is truly something to see, feel/touch - it is like ribbons of silk.
Wouldn't you get a litter of pups - if you bred a silky coat to a red legged some pup with silk and some with red legged, but the all would carry the gene for the red legged.
S x R
SR S R RS

Pat who mentioned it was common place?

Lorraine are you stating youve never breed a black? Also because YOUVE not heard of breeding a red leg, it shouldnt be done?

Cher, youve known breeders that have done this type of breeding and so have I...You state above its NOT necessary anymore...that is your opinion, but it doesnt make it WRONG?

Ladies are you discrediting anyone that would use a red leg in their breeding program? I certainly hope this is not your subtile way to cast doubt on other breeders choices just because YOU PERSONALLY have not heard of this type of breeding or YOU FIND IT NO LONGER NECESSARY!

No discrediting at all. No way. This is a learning forum and all just trying to share what we know. This is how people learn. If we were all afraid to voice our own opinions and knowledge - we would not truly being learning. We have to repect everyone's opinion. And I will say this first - I do not know it all, but want to hear what everyone has to say. I repect Pat and truly understand what she is doing and respect her point of view. I repect Lorraine and Cher as well for sharing more information.
It is like raising a child - you learn how to raise your own by getting information about childcare from everyone you come in contact with and what you learn yourself. You hear what each one has to say and then take what you like and throw away what you do not like. I do not want this forum to be lock out nor where people are afraid to share their own opinions and knowledge they know. Kimberly, I understand ~ you are very kind to Pat (And others) and only are trying to help. :) But we are just sharing knowledge and opinions. Sharing one's opinion does not mean/say, in any way, that the other/s is/are wrong. :p

You brought it up, we gave our opinion.

As I stated:
"So each breeder has to do what they see as best but in today's world with all our dark blue silk coats, there would be no reason for me to add any other problem coats into my breeding program."

So it seems you chose not to look at that statement. As I stated FOR ME. Just because you have chose to do this breeding that was your choice, but you brought it up on the forum and we have stated our opinions on what we would do. I would hope you are not saying we are NOT allowed to have our own opinion. No one has said anything about the fact that you should not have done the breeding. Quite obviously I stated that "each breeder has to do what they see as best." Why would you argue a point when we stated our opinion without making any negative comments!

I happen to do judges education for the YTCA, and have been mentor for a great deal of breeders and like to make sure they see there is a difference from many years ago vs now in a breeding program. Again you have chosen your breeding program and that is entirely your choice. NO one here has said a word about your choices, but we as breeders have indicated what we do so the newcomers can also understand there are other ways breeders handle a breeding program. They can then make their own decisions.