Question to breeders
 

Okay-please dont attack me for asking this question.

I've read many of the posts of people inquiring about breeding their dog, mixed or purebred, the response is the same! Anyone who has come to this site and asked the question is researching, but nonetheless they are always told to do their research and quite often get verbally attacked.

I've read that people should NEVER breed their pet because there is too much heartache involved, but I see stated on the breeders websites that the breed dogs are not only their pets, but part of their family-what sense does that make? I've also seen on these breeder websites that retired breed dogs are up for adoption.....if they were such a part of their family, when their sole purpose in this "family" is served, why get rid of them? So much for the love of your "family". I guess once the dollar is done being earned-they are outta there!

Purebred versus mix: if you look down the line-they were all mixed somewhere along the lines. My family and friends have owned mixed dogs adopted from animal shelters that have led extremely healthy and long lasting lives--way more than the purebreds that had been raised.

A purebred dog is nothing more than a mixed breed that has been inbred time over time until the breeder "thinks" they have it right.

I admire the good breeders out there that truly love their animals and keep them and love them for the duration of their lives. A mixed dog is no less of value just because of the bloodline.......a life is a life no matter what the "race" is.

I'm not saying that everyone out there should breed their dog. I firmly agree wtih responsible breeding practices, but I don't have to agree with all of the opinions of the purebred breeders.

Okay I guess I should expect to be the one getting a verbal attack now, but like everyone else on this site--I have my opinion and Im entitled to it.

We bought our yorkie from a breeder that this is not their practice, and hopefully it isn't that of many breeders. I do believe there are many out there that are into breeding and keep their retired females, and do become very attatched to them and are not in it for just financial gain. I have not done a search on the net of web site breeders to read what you are talking about. I do see your point here and think it is very well put by you. We have never had any interest in breeding any of our pets so can't answer your ? but make a personal comment on this subject. Have a nice night.
Patti and ~~Baby Blessing~~

just for the record-I have not seen that on websites of yorkietalk.com breeder members....I've just seen it on misc. web sites. Hope none of the breeders here took offense.

I know it upsets a lot of people but I'm curious about this. From my own experience and from what I've read on YT, people have a hard time finding responsible breeders with available puppies. I want my puppy from a home where they only have enough dogs they can care for properly and give the attention they deserve. If they breed after the second heat and for only so many years without wearing the females out, then keep the females for the rest of their lives, how many puppies could they possibly have? Where does that leave the many people wanting puppies to turn? More mill puppies?
If you look at the big picture, isn't it necessary for good breeders to rehome?

We've taken in two dogs when the owners could no longer keep them. The dogs never forgot them but were just as happy with us (it was harder on the owners). I just don't see it as that terrible if they find a loving home.

Yes-I know its pretty difficult to find a reputable breeder with an available pup. I would think there would be more encouragement to the people wanting to breed rather than questioning their intentions.

I would think that yorkietalk.com to ask some questions would be a great place to start, possibly the best place to start next to a vet's office. The negative shouldn't be assummed. Is it gonna stop someone from breeding their pet? no--they just wont come post about it.

I guess the truth is--not everyone out there wanting to breed their pet is a future "puppy mill" and some encouragement and great advice would be in order.

From My Experience, It Appears Alot Of People Do This As A Hobby To Make Extra$$ And When This Occurs, You Get Over Breeding And The Standards Are Compromised. Most People Want A Large Female (11 Lbs) To A Small Male (3lbs) To Have More Puppies Ie...make More Money. This Is Wrong And Wrong To The Person Who Is Purchasing The Puppy. I Am One Of Thoese Examples Of Someone Who Wanted The Standard Breed And My Male Is 8lbs. This Is Very Heartbreaking B/c I Wanted A 5/6 Lb Pup. I Love My Kirby To Death And Would Never Give Him Up Due To His Size But I Really Wanted To Start Showing Just For The Fun Of It And For The Pure Enjoyment But I Cannot Due To His Size. I Am Not A Breeder Nor Do I Want To Be One But For Someone Who Would Like To Have The Standard Breed, I Would Want Someone Who Is Serious And Not Breed Just For The Money.

that would be heartbreaking to buy a pup to show for hobby and its not within the breed standard, but a good breeder cannot guarantee the size of the pup..only an educated guess.

Dont a lot of breeders who are selling a show quality puppy keep the pup until its around 6 months to ensure it will be within the standard and size that the customer expects? Did your breeder do that?

i took the breeder on her word. she advised me the mother was 5lbs and father 3lbs. when i picked up kirby, the mother was there but the father was a stud located somewhere else. she showed me the pedigree (which doesn't tell me anything except there was no inner breeding) and seemed to be very knowledgable on yorkies. but on this yt, you see a lot of people w large females having pups which doesnt keep w the standard.

Yeah-it makes it difficult to trust a breeder, but if I were purchasing a show dog, I'd definately make sure both of the parents were AKC champions first. Hind site is 20/20..hopefully you'll get your chance to show one day.

Dont a lot of breeders who are selling a show quality puppy keep the pup until its around 6 months to ensure it will be within the standard and size that the customer expects? Did your breeder do that?[/QUOTE]


I am always keeping my show prospect puppies until 7 to 9 months . Don't forget that sometimes peoples want to have the puppy before due time . It is not always the fault of the breeder if a person don't have what he or she want.
Once , I had a person wanting to have a show pup and when I told the person she would have to wait , she called me all sort of names and went to the nearest pet shop and bough the most horrible puppy I have ever seen .
The secret for buying a show puppy is patience , patience and patience .

Well said Olivier :thumbs up

"Up to 10 million healthy animals are killed in U.S. pounds and shelters every year. The killing could easily be prevented by spaying and neutering.
Euthanasia is the single largest cause of death for dogs in the U.S. Each year 27 million of the animals are born. Five to ten million we classify as "surplus" and kill. That's about one million per month. These numbers do not include the millions of dead dogs whose bodies we scrape off the streets, or the hundreds of thousands of abandoned, severely neglected or abused ones who never make it to our shelters to be counted and killed. The five to ten million figure represents those we "must" kill because they are unwanted.
Most of these animals are young and healthy; in fact, it is estimated that a majority are less than one year of age. The problem is simple: we have too many dogs. Too many for the too few homes available. The solution we have opted for is to kill the extras. This solution has been considered acceptable by default, as though there were no other way to control the crisis. And we spend over $1 billion every year destroying "man's best friend."
Why is this happening in the United States today? The number one biggest contributor to the problem is the backyard breeder not the puppy mills.
This is a name that has become unpopular and no one wants to admit they are a backyard breeder. Many people do not even realize they are part of the problem. This is what I need to address in this post. The only way to stop the needless killing of dogs is to stop the needless breeding of them.
Every breed of dog recognized by the AKC has a written standard, a blueprint of what the dog should look like and act like. These standards were written so that all would know what a quality example of the breed is and strive to produce dogs that meet or exceed the standard in health, temperament and appearance. To be sure you are breeding dogs that meet these standards, your dogs must be judged by people who have a lifetime of experience among the breed."

To address some of the questions you posed
Questioning intentions is the first step anyone should make of themselves before beginning to breed...There are many things most people don't even consider and those of us with experience doing this feel an obligation to educate if we can. I am more than willing to help anyone interested in doing this WELL, since there is a dearth of reputable breeders out there and unfortunately a plethora of irresponsible, uninformed bybs with questionable motivation at best.
There is a very large difference between breeding your pet and treating your breeding dogs AS pets. A great deal of time, research and money is invested in the dogs used by a responsible breeder in a breeding program to attempt to eliminate the problems that are inherent in the breed and to try to produce a good example of the standard for the love of the breed itself.
Yes, we love them and they are our pets and that is what produces a well socialized dog. It is a question of the total package, not just getting one part of this equation correct.

"I've also seen on these breeder websites that retired breed dogs are up for adoption.....if they were such a part of their family, when their sole purpose in this "family" is served, why get rid of them? So much for the love of your "family". I guess once the dollar is done being earned-they are outta there!"

This comment is a common observation made by those who don't understand what kind of commitment is involved in doing this well. The costs involved far outweigh the income....so the question of them being 'outta there' when done earning is ridiculous. If a breeder kept all of their breeding dogs as pets perpetually, they could never improve the quality of what they were producing. Placing retirees as pets is done out of love, true love, which looks to the welfare of the dog first and our own emotional ties second.

I am not going to address the question of mixed breeds other than to say, there are plenty of those in rescue all the time, why would anyone deliberately add to that problem?

Sylvan, it all boils down to responsible breeding practices and pet ownership. Not everyone inquiring on breeding is gonna allow one of their pups to go to a shelter. There is a bad seed everywhere...but there are some good seeds as well--just saying dont attack everyone inquiring on breeding their dog.

You are right it does. If a person commits to a lifetime return policy on any pups they produce and insists on spay/neuter for any pets produced then that is a step in the right direction. In my opinion the reponsible thing to do is research thoroughly BEFORE you acquire your first 'breeding' dog....not come here saying 'I think my dog is having puppies?'
You attacked the reputable breeders that retire breeding dogs to pet homes by insinuating that our motivation is purely financial, but we are somehow rude for questioning motivations/intentions of people that want to breed their pets?

there was no attack--scroll back up and read the post "just for the record-I have never seen that of yorkietalk.com breeder websites".

"I've also seen on these breeder websites that retired breed dogs are up for adoption.....if they were such a part of their family, when their sole purpose in this "family" is served, why get rid of them? So much for the love of your "family". I guess once the dollar is done being earned-they are outta there!"


I saw your disclaimer, but the fact is that I do plan to place my breeding dogs in pet homes when I retire them and I will probably never get out of the 'red' on my hobby, so I do find this comment offensive.

I have a friend who lives in San Antonio and she fosters dogs for the humane society...she said a large number of the dogs she gets are from breeders. She said after what she has witnessed, she'll never purchase a purebred.

Me, on the other hand, there are a few purebred dogs that I love and cant resist...but I wouldn't get mine from a large scale breeding operation.

But I promise, Im not attacking anyone here. If the breeders arent making any money and cant keep the retirees....and try to convince those interested in thinking twice about breeding--then why do it?

Is it possible to keep a retiree and just purchase a pup from someone else's breeding program to introduce fresh blood??

That's not heartbreaking, that's disappointment.

Heartbreaking was the two women I met the other week when I took one of my Shelties into the veterinary hospital for dental work. One had come from NY and one had come from North Jersey. Both had brought their Yorkies (from different breeders in different states) to the hospital to see if they would be able to save their precious pets. Both pups had liver shunt and it was very doubtful that they could be saved even though the owners were willing to spend any amount of money to help them.

My brief meeting with these two heartbroken strangers has haunted me for weeks now. If that is what I saw in a brief time frame on a random Tuesday in a single practice, how many other dogs show up at how many other vets offices on any given day?

THAT, I dare to say, is heartbreaking. :(

Yes of course that is heartbreaking....irresponsible breeding practices.

Sylvan, are you breeding that many dogs that you cant keep a retiree?

The kind of breeders who would allow their dogs to wind up in rescue are the very ones we get slapped at for referring to as backyard breeders. This exemplifies the point made in the article I posted.

Why do it? I can only answer for myself. 'For love of the breed' encompasses a wide range of motivations. I find a well-bred dog a joy to behold on many levels, I am fascinated with the history and tradition behind it, I respect the effort and knowledge and dedication that was involved in producing it, I find the study of genetics endlessly absorbing and I am grateful for the day to day interaction I have with my crew of critters. There is also satisfaction in being able to provide a deserving family with a healthy, quality dog to bring the kind of joy to their lives that mine bring to me...and the bonus is being allowed to consider many of those people friends that I was fortunate to meet.
Most hobbies do not provide income and do cost money, but provide personal satifaction that doesn't need to be explained to people that have them..

If I kept all the retirees for the average lifespan of 14 yrs and continued purchasing pups from someone else's breeding program to introduce 'fresh' blood, I would very quickly become a Large scale breeding operation. I can only provide the proper care and interaction with about 12 dogs in my home, if the numbers increase far past that point, someone is not going to get the proper amount of attention since there are still only 24 hrs in a day, and I only sleep about 4 now. So what you are saying is that I should just quit my hobby when my dogs all reach retirement age....instead of placing them in a home where they will get the devoted one on one care that they would enjoy and leave me able to continue doing something that I have dedicated a large part of my life to and have a sincere commitment to doing well.

who said anything about a backyard breeder? She got her dogs from people who are in it for the "business".....they show dogs as well. They go through extensive training too....very high-scale operations...are the dogs mistreated? From what she says-yes they are....but there is no proof of that, but time and time again she has to attempt to "undo" the damage that has been done-some she keeps and some she cant.

I guess Im kinda "dawgin" on the large scale breeders who are in it for the sole purpose to make a buck for their well-rounded dogs...

Thank heaven there are people like her that take these dogs in just simply for the love of an animal.

I am thankful there are reputable breeders who are willing to take in a dog that the owner for some reason changed their mind or just simply couldnt care for any longer for whatever their reason may be....

There are many advantages to adopting an older dog rather than a puppy. An older dog can be as cute and lovable as a puppy, and the older dog often comes with many wonderful qualities that the puppy takes years to grow into. Most retired dogs come into a new household with little fanfare. They find a soft, warm lap and claim it as their own.

For some people, an older dog, usually house-trained and calmer than a puppy, is the perfect companion. Other people want to share their lives with a dog, but they do not want to make a commitment of 15 or more years. An older dog's shorter life expectancy fits in with their future plans when the children go off to college, for example. Still others enjoy the unwavering devotion and constant companionship of a trained retired dog.

Retired dogs have learned most of life's lessons and are ready to enjoy their golden years. With lives far from over, retired dogs can indeed be valuable family and community members. Not surprisingly, they make excellent therapy dogs and companions to older people.

Most recently I placed Cappie into a very loving only dog home. Where he is the center of this wonderful couple life and attention. My decision to no longer use him in my breeding program was deliberate and long thought out. Is it an easy thing to do "of course not" but yet I had to think what was best for him.

I recently placed two kids of mine and you tell me if it isnt the right thing to do? Read for yourself what their new family had to say.

From: Marie ***** <******@yahoo.com>
To: yorkiepassion@comcast.net
Subject: Re: cappie
Date: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:45:59 AM


Kim - Just to update you on Cappie. He is doing absolutely wonderful. He is adapting very well with our family and seems to be happy. He has been sleeping with us now every night. He ran around with us all weekend and you were right, he does love to go for rides. We absolutely love him.

Marie

From: Jody
To: yorkiepassion@comcast.net
Subject: Thank you :)
Date: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:35:12 AM


I feel like it was fate Ashlee was meant to be mine. I love my little boy but he is very hyper. Ashlee is my most precious baby. She truly is a princess. She is treated like royalty at our house.

Thank you so much for sharing her with us.

Jody

:bravo: glad to hear

I think that Pat said it best..."Breeders are cut from a different cloth". Not everyone can understand how breeders do it. It isn't for everyone.

I am always keeping my show prospect puppies until 7 to 9 months . Don't forget that sometimes peoples want to have the puppy before due time . It is not always the fault of the breeder if a person don't have what he or she want.
Once , I had a person wanting to have a show pup and when I told the person she would have to wait , she called me all sort of names and went to the nearest pet shop and bough the most horrible puppy I have ever seen .
The secret for buying a show puppy is patience , patience and patience .[/QUOTE]
I totally agree....when I decided to get my second yorkie. My first in not in the breed standard. I contacted and developed a relationship with the breeder. I was on her waiting list for over a year before a pup became available.

When I started looking for a show quality yorkie , some breeders told me " dont' even bother to write or email us because we don't have time for those stupid things , if you really want a puppy from us , go to dogshows and let yourself known because if one day , we have a puppy available , you'll miss the train if we don't know you " . At first , I though it was rude . I purchased my first girl for show from one of them , she became my mentor for a few years . Now , she is retired from breeding and often come to visit me and the girls when we are at dogshows . I am always proud to see her .

breeders
 

All I can say is...children grow up and leave the nest..puppies and retired dogs do the same. Doesn't mean we do not love and cherish them..it just means, "that is the way it is" for many and we do not need to defend our practices..they are legal, moral and ethcial.
A breeder who chooses to keep all retirees, has that option..but be forwarned, unless they have live-in help and limitless funds, their breeding life span will be about 5 to 8 years.

Cares4Dogs~

Hmmm...while I don't agree with all of your opinions, you have brought up some very intersting...and convincing...points of view. Very thought provoking!

(Lol...have you ever considered a career in sales...or better yet, as a lawyer? ;) )