Back to the question-

My vote would be no...too many opinions involved...and too much debate-

Forget I asked..lolololol

Irene~

I too am with you about wanting ALL members to be educated about the pros and cons of early s/n. Maybe we can work together to come up with language for a sticky that accurately reflects the good and the bad of this practice and present it to admin as a "sticky". :thumbup:

I think there is just such a strong concern in our society about pet over population that this concern gets a lot of weight and the individual needs of the particular dog in question are not as carefully assessed which is all that concerns me. I am not anti-neutering...I am anti ROUTINE neutering where it is just considered the thing to do because the Shelter people and Bob Barker say it is the "responsible" thing to do and EVERY pet who isn't to be bred is automatically neutered.

We are the only country who does this. In many countries around the world, it is the opposite, and it is uncommon to neuter a pet unless there is a justifiable reason that is in the best interests of THAT dog, not the pet over population problem. I feel that this is a better policy for the individual dogs.

I think a sticky would be a good idea only IF it didn't have a zillion other opinions on it that distract from the original idea....that Early Spay Neuter thread went all over the place after the first few pages and IF a new person were to come and read all that ...they'd be more confused than ever.

Sometimes LESS is more and in the case of information - certain things can be said simply and to the point.....

besides - a sticky shouldn't be a debate thread.

Quote Kim"We are the only country who does this. In many countries around the world, it is the opposite, and it is uncommon to neuter a pet unless there is a justifiable reason that is in the best interests of THAT dog, not the pet over population problem. I feel that this is a better policy for the individual dogs."

Kim, I am curious as to which countries you are referring to and where you obtained this information.

I agree that you should never do s/n "just because," but I don't really see many people coming here stating that's why the do/don't choose it. Most of the s/n stories here seem to have a very valid reason behind the decision. I would hope it is safe to say that most people are responsible enough to be able to either 1) keep their dogs from being bred if that is not their choice/what is best or 2) if they don't think they can prevent an unwanted litter, have the s/n done....At least they are able to admit they can't handle preventing it (which would, in their case, be in the best interest of the dog/breed/owner) and step up to the plate to take action rather than waiting for an "accident" to happen. What would be their alternative? Not having a dog at all? That doesn't seem very fair. :(

In the beginning of this thread I posted a link that had actual breeder experiences. Breeders that have incorporated early s/n for years and no problems. As a breedert that will do everything I can to prevent my babies being bred without my consent, I found that link extremely helpful. Then we actually have 2 breeders that are on YT that state the samething no problems, thus far. Doesn't mean that somthing may happen. But testimony is good enough for me. It's an important decision a breeder must face. The only full proof way is to s/n the pup before it leave. Right? A contract means nothing IMO. I've had people tell me they will do what they want, it's 'their' dog. I don't take any chances. There is always risks if you don't get them s/n early, they can get hit by a car..right?

Very good post. :thumbup: :thumbup:

It was in an article I read earlier in the week that I just searched for again and did not find but I will keep looking. I did find this article from a British veterinarian organization that states the following:

Dogs need not be castrated routinely unless particular problems are encounted such as vagrancy, over-sexed behaviour, or pining when bitches nearby are on heat. They may be castrated at any age and it is always best to discuss your reasons with the vet or Penny Jackson, our behavioural counsellor.http://www.millhousevets.co.uk/faq/dogne.htm

This proves that Britain is one of the countries.

This same article says the optimum time to spay is 6 weeks after the first heat:

The ideal time time to spay is 6 weeks after the first season ends. A recent large survey of spayed bitches, showed that spaying after the first season caused a lower incidence of incontinence, particularly in certain breeds (eg Old English Sheepdog, Golden Retrievers and Gordon Setters). The incidence of mammary tumours is reduced by spaying before the second season

Another article says that another drawback to early s/n is the lack of gender specific characterisitics.

See this link for the entire article:http://www.labbies.com/neuter.htm

Here is an excerpt:
LACK OF GENDER CHARACTERISTICS ATTRIBUTED TO EARLY NEUTERING. Reproductive hormones such as estrogen in the female and testosterone in the male are also responsible for producing feminine and masculine traits, respectively. Early neutering which removes the source of production of these hormones prior to complete physical development and maturity of a dog results in individuals which may appear neither masculine nor feminine. Postponing neutering for 2-3 years in a male or allowing a female to go through one estrus cycle allows for development of gender characteristics.

This same article says this:
For many years it was accepted that bitches should be spayed after their first season. It is now thought, however, that spaying them before this first season, at 4-5 months is simpler and causes no more side effects. In fact, the incidence of mammary (breast) cancer can be reduced

Seems like this is contradictory in itself, doesn't it? IMO, this article states that certain things like "pining when females are in heat," are good reasons to neuter. What male dog ISN'T going to do that?!?! It looks like they say, don't do it w/out a good reason, but to them, EVERY little thing is a good reason.

OK, so they list the cons as:
1. Possible urinary incontnence-"Urinary incontinence can be caused by other factors such as trauma, infection, or hereditary abnormalities"
2. Lack of gender characteristics, although they don't give any examples of which traits
3. Can't participate in AKC events
4. Can't breed

They list pros as:
1. Less chance of unwanted behavior
2. Decrease of cancer risks-to as little as 5% in females, testicular cancer to 0% (obviously)

Gee...seems like the pros are more beneficial than the cons, in my opinion.

Well Irene...it appears as if your question has turned into another debate thread- BIG surprise there...but some members just have to seize every opportunity they can to make a debate--JMO
ps- I am still a no vote for that very reason- and as for someone writing a sticky and posting it again probably not a good idea-

How is this a "debate" any more than any other informative thread where members are listing the pros and cons of an issue and citing their own experiences. There is no right or wrong answer to this....only getting the info out there so that every pet owner, and sometimes breeder, can make the decision for each animal with all of the information in front of them. No one is trying to sway decisions one way or another but simply supply the info and the sites for the members to read up themselves and become better educated on the topic.

Do you just want everyone to say that there are only good reasons to early s/n when that is not the truth? I am not following this. :confused: Those in favor of routine ESN can say why they have reached that decision and those who are opposed can express why they feel it is may not be the thing to do.

Do you not feel the negatives should be discussed at all?

This thread and the one on Early Spay/Neuter have been entirely civil and uneventful with maybe one or two exceptions of posts by those who feel it is wrong to say there that is ever a reason to question neutering a pet.

I feel that we would be doing this board and it's members a disservice to not present as much info as we can find on a topic, pro and con, if we are considering making it a "sticky" especially and then posting it with citations so that each member can make educated decisions for their pets.

For example, Bamafan has decided after reading all of the pros and cons that ESN is what she feels is best. Others will feel differently. That is the beauty of it. Everyone can decide for themselves but they have not been "pressured" by the neuter nazis or their vet or the people against pet over-population.

I know that this will never be a "sticky" but will come up in the searches and we have given more info here than anyone alone knew before these threads so we have taught everyone something and made them think.

Where is the crime in that?

There is no crime in any of this- but the thread was originally should I ask for a sticky- you chose to take it off its original topic and continue your early s/n thread in another place- THAT- is my point....nothing more nothing less- so please do not try to make it more than what it is-

With all due respect, I did not take it off topic....Goldenray did. I did respond as did others. :)

Please show me where I said you did....with all due respect-

An even better request...Please show me where Goldenray is the one that took it off topic, cause I honestly can't find it. :confused: I am assuming that you are not referencing the one where she stated she didn't know what a sticky was. IMO, that comment in no way spawned the novel-length research that followed.

Your post #45 where you quoted my post #44 and then said "you" when referring to me..

This is what you said :

"you chose to take it off its original topic and continue your early s/n thread in another place"

I am the one with the Early Spay Neuter thread so you couldn't have been referring to anyone else.

Goldenray took it OT in her post #22.

Did I miss something? :confused:

This was not OT because I was explaining my reasons for not making it a "sticky" yet. I wasn't writing those things to discuss them in that thread but merely to state what some of the issues were that were not discussed yet. :)

So Goldenray post was, because she questioned what Vet would say what you stated in post #20. This isn't a debate nor politics, however you can't just pick out only the post that suits your agenda, and opinions. The poster is a breeder if I am not mistaken, and have a history of doing ESN!

Well...Since this is a NEVER ENDING DEBATE - I'll add my 2 cents.

The breeder section was a NICE place to come and read about what REAL BREEDERS had to say... and a place to learn about breeding... and seeing help offered for new breeders.

SoCal - all over this site you state YOUR views and never let anyone else have their own without looking for a reason to argue and it's seriously getting old.....

It is now a DEBATE section geared toward one persons views and it's overtaking this section. I haven't seen hardly any breeding posts since this freakin LONG debate over spay neuter started

Now it sounds like you're in high school and completely childish with this latest - 'who did what when' ... WHO CARES who took something off topic ? we all do it .......I just can't you pointing fingers Kim when you do this Yourself all the time.

I think I'm taking a break from here for a while till this part of Yorkietalk gets back to what this section is for - BREEDING ...and it isn't someones podium or a place to get all political because YOUR vet said this or that.

It's a place where usually someone can say something without worrying about getting into a serious debate.....There are so many people reading all this and shaking their heads...laughing actually.... and no one is posting about what this section is for. Which is BREEDING.

If I get suspended for this - fine....but this has gone on now for days and it's really getting SILLY and boring as anything.

I have an idea. Delete the breeder section all together. It's awful.

There are 24 other threads in this section that you are free to participate in.

I only returned to this one because Gymbo said there was question of his I had not answered. I had not been on here all day as I cosidered it done.

Here is his post on the Early Spay/Neuter thread. I guess I shouldn't have taken the "bait" but I think it is rude not to answer someone.

By Gymbo (Post #120 on the ESN thread)
UUGGHH...you girls have fun-
btw Kim I am still waiting for your reply on the sticky thread
I do not remember saying it was you--FYI

this thread is too much for me...I am off..but enjoy your debate/discussions-

It's isn't a breeder section anymore - it's the DEBATE section because someone here loves to debate anything and everything.

I concur ;)