advise / weaning/ engorged nipples

[postalmom1987]

Boy I guess I've been lucky with Krystal. She more or less called the shots. She just tappered off feeding them and I started dried puppy chow which they love. It's only been the last two to three days that she has been growling and snapping at them to stop them nursing. And she has had gradual shrinking in her teets. The pups are fine and even love broken up dog bones to crunch. I've cut her food back and stopped adding puppy food to her food. She's back to being more playful and running. I love seeing her do that and missed it while she played mommy.
Dion

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by postalmom1987

Boy I guess I've been lucky with Krystal. She more or less called the shots. She just tappered off feeding them and I started dried puppy chow which they love. It's only been the last two to three days that she has been growling and snapping at them to stop them nursing. And she has had gradual shrinking in her teets. The pups are fine and even love broken up dog bones to crunch. I've cut her food back and stopped adding puppy food to her food. She's back to being more playful and running. I love seeing her do that and missed it while she played mommy.
Dion

It all worked out. Gracie does want to eat their food and will jump into the x--pen and two of them will go after her to nurse, which she lets them for the 2-3 minutes it takes to gobble their food up!. The second born boy, he has no interest in nursing. They are all thriving and go for their first shots this coming weekend. They are eating kibble (still giving them the whole, kibble, rough chopped, and fine chopped + plus tiny pieces of chicken breast meat and puppy bones. They also still get a little goat's milk diluted with water, but they prefer diluted 1/2 and 1/2 (I found that out one evening when I ran out of goat's milk) She's back to running and playing with our other Yorkie and tries to play with the pups but she gets a little rough I think...but the first born boy plays rough with her and I think he nips her and it ticks her off! We had them out playing in the kitchen last night and he played too rough and she got after him and it made him mad, and then he went after her and they were nearly ready to fight - scared me) Due to being gone all day we have to keep them separated, (we blocked off the x-pen gate as high as we could so Gracie could jump in and out, (14") but now the one boy can climb that and I can't have him getting out while we're gone at work), so we close the gate, because she can't make it out if it went any higher - we can't keep Gracie in there all day as two of the pups won't leave her alone and I'm afraid she'll hurt them if trapped in that pen all day with 'em. We can't let them run loose as they'd be lost for sure in our house.
Anyway, yeah, I guess let mother nature take it's course. She was an exceptional doting mother the first 5 weeks, tapered off her "concern" this last couple weeks, still protective, but doesn't feel the need to be with them all the time.
Kendra

[yorkiegirl67]

Hello Kendra, I've really enjoyed reading this thread as I am beginning the weaning process with our 4 puppies. Lucy developed eclampsia 4 days following whelp, so we have been bottle feeding them since then. I had to deal with the swollen teats, and her crying for her puppies to feed them, but the vet said absolutely not. What my vet recommended was "cold compresses", as opposed to "warm compresses". I got one of those gel pads, put it in the freezer and wrapped it in a cloth, so it wouldn't be too cold. She loved it, and would lay on her back, cradled in my arms like a baby, while I applied a little pressure. She had some issues with sadness over not being able to nurse the pups, so she didn't eat so well for the first week. That seemed to dry her up pretty quickly. Also, I purchased some baby onsie pajamas from the resale store, and cut off the arms and legs & put a slot for her tail. That way, she could interact with the pups, and no worries about them trying to nurse from her. Now that the puppies are 4 weeks old, she still interacts with them for short periods of play, and if one trys to nurse off her, she simply gets up and walks away. I still keep an eye on this though, as I'm sure even though she looks dried up, they could probably suckle enough to get things flowing again. I'm giving our puppies gruel, but only twice per day... and still supplementing them with the bottles they are used to. They are good at lapping, but don't want water ! I don't want them to get dehydrated and of course I want to slowly get them on food and not overwhelm their GI track. Our puppies are big... they were born at 7 oz., 6.4 oz. 6.8 oz. & 5.8 oz. Now they are between 1-1/2 lbs. and 2 lbs. !! Basically, they gain 1 oz. per day. I use fresh, whole goats milk, yogurt, karo, & egg yolk. Our pups did not like the taste of evaporated, canned goats milk. Someone said the whole milk was better, but wow.. a bit expensive !!

I'm worried about moving too fast on the gruel (which they can lap, so it is a medium consistency) and the worries about dehydration with refusing water. I started putting a little formula in their water, and they still turn their nose up at it. Grrrr... they want their milky !! So if I fed them 4 times per day of the gruel, and they were not drinking much water, I worry about them through the night, dehydration and issues with constipation. Do you or anyone else have any ideas ? My pups do not have teeth yet.

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl67

Hello Kendra, I've really enjoyed reading this thread as I am beginning the weaning process with our 4 puppies. Lucy developed eclampsia 4 days following whelp, so we have been bottle feeding them since then. I had to deal with the swollen teats, and her crying for her puppies to feed them, but the vet said absolutely not. What my vet recommended was "cold compresses", as opposed to "warm compresses". I got one of those gel pads, put it in the freezer and wrapped it in a cloth, so it wouldn't be too cold. She loved it, and would lay on her back, cradled in my arms like a baby, while I applied a little pressure. She had some issues with sadness over not being able to nurse the pups, so she didn't eat so well for the first week. That seemed to dry her up pretty quickly. Also, I purchased some baby onsie pajamas from the resale store, and cut off the arms and legs & put a slot for her tail. That way, she could interact with the pups, and no worries about them trying to nurse from her. Now that the puppies are 4 weeks old, she still interacts with them for short periods of play, and if one trys to nurse off her, she simply gets up and walks away. I still keep an eye on this though, as I'm sure even though she looks dried up, they could probably suckle enough to get things flowing again. I'm giving our puppies gruel, but only twice per day... and still supplementing them with the bottles they are used to. They are good at lapping, but don't want water ! I don't want them to get dehydrated and of course I want to slowly get them on food and not overwhelm their GI track. Our puppies are big... they were born at 7 oz., 6.4 oz. 6.8 oz. & 5.8 oz. Now they are between 1-1/2 lbs. and 2 lbs. !! Basically, they gain 1 oz. per day. I use fresh, whole goats milk, yogurt, karo, & egg yolk. Our pups did not like the taste of evaporated, canned goats milk. Someone said the whole milk was better, but wow.. a bit expensive !!

I'm worried about moving too fast on the gruel (which they can lap, so it is a medium consistency) and the worries about dehydration with refusing water. I started putting a little formula in their water, and they still turn their nose up at it. Grrrr... they want their milky !! So if I fed them 4 times per day of the gruel, and they were not drinking much water, I worry about them through the night, dehydration and issues with constipation. Do you or anyone else have any ideas ? My pups do not have teeth yet.

Yes, these types of threads are great for helping aren't they? I learn so much from not only my own questions, but from others. Sorry to hear your dog had trouble with eclampsia. Gracie did some weird panting a couple times (& acting odd) and I was concerned but then she stopped (we attributed it to laying in the whelping box on a heating pad and nursing and exhausting & overheating her). Now I wonder what was up with that really. Might have been the start of eclampsia.
My pups had all their teeth at 4 weeks, thus I'm thinking that's why Gracie decided to wean them...though when she jumps in their x-pen to play with them (or steal their puppy food) they usually attack her and try to nurse...she sets them straight right quick! (they're 8 weeks now).
Water: I, too was fearful of dehydration, at about 3 weeks I'd dip my fingers into the water bowl and open their mouths and put a few drops in..I'd do that twice daily. Then at about 4 weeks they'd go to the water bowl and lap at it. I always kept it at half water, half ice...thus I think once they discovered the nice cool water they loved it.
The puppy mush: I would open their mouths and put some in each of their mouths 2 x a day, which they weren't crazy about but I knew they were at least getting something (they'd spit it out at first, but I'd make 'em swallow it - seemed cruel, but I wanted to make sure they got something of substance in them) plus I'd leave chopped puppy kibble (I'd put the already small kibble in a baggie and take a hammer and smash it "fine") and they would go over and try a nibble or two, eventually getting the hang of it. I still give them puppy kibble in three "sizes" 2 x day: I use Royal Canin Baby Dog. I put some of the kibble in their bowl (unchopped), add some "rough chopped" and then some "fine chopped" - they eat it all so I'm sure I wouldn't have to chop it any more, but it makes me feel like I'm doing something special for them. Mary suggested I add baby cereal (rice) to the mush and I did that (made sure that got put into their mouths), that didn't last long as I noticed they preferred their mush without it and would eat it better without - but I think that was because I started the rice cereal after introducing them to the dog food mush - so I think the rice cereal is a great idea.
I was buying the canned goats milk and diluting it with distilled water, warm it and they loved that. But now they prefer diluted regular canned milk or 1/2 & 1/2 - so they get probably a 1/2 cup of diluted milk 2 x a day.
I use to give them Karo (a drop) once a day and then a puppy nutri cal once a day (alternate feedings), but have since quit that as they are just thriving, seem like much older puppies.
Since yours don't have teeth, maybe just make up the rice cereal w/ a teeny tiny drop of the puppy nutri cal (liquid) mixed in, plus some karo and a teeny tiny bit of fine crushed puppy kibble and put it in their mouths several times a day.
I read another thread about massaging their backsides with a warm washcloth to stimulate mama's licking of them to help them eliminate.
I think as long as they were getting the mush in them you could start cutting back on the bottle feeding and making sure you give them some water each day...but I'm not the expert here. Just when I think I know nearly all I need to know a new question comes up for me. Thank Goodness for YT and these threads and all the experienced breeders we have here!
Good Luck, let me know how it goes
Kendra

[yorkiegirl67]

Hey Kendra, thanks for your reply ! It's great to hear other's experiences, and share back and forth. I actually did start with a rice cereal / crushed Wellness dry kibble... I think the ratio is 1 Cup Rice Cereal, 1 Cup Goats Milk formula mixture that had the yogurt, karo and egg yolk only, mixed with 1/2 C. of pulverized, basically powdered dry puppy kibble. I used my food processor at first so it was nearly powder. It was way too thick, so I thinned it down with more formula at first, so they could lap it. They loved it... never any issues with eating, or having to hand feed these little "eaters", but unfortunately they have been used to us feeding them given the eclampsia issue since day 4 ! Thank God they got 4 days of colustrum from the Momma !

The pups surprised me and started drinking heavily diluted water with a little bit of formula... It's amazing how quickly they develop and change from one day to the next, even hour to hour. I'm still going to take it slow..

You know, I'll bet your little girl was feeling a bit of eclampsia given what you said about the "heavy panting". That was my first sign she was not right. When I picked her up, and she couldn't stand, I knew it would only go downhill from there. No way would I risk her life, so off to the ER my husband went at 3 am. The vet said, she could have been dead by the time we awoke in the a.m. from severe seizures & calcium issues. I know so much more now, that if we ever breed her again.. which we are not planning, even though despite everything it's been an amazing experience, I will supplement with calcium upon whelp with the pudding mixtures and monitor the demand the puppies place on the Momma. I believe our pups were a bit larger in size, and our Lucy was almost 9 lbs., but still... she nursed continuously and the pups depleted her in a short time. I even had the vet check her calcium even though they didnt' want to, 24 hours post whelp and all was fine. They basically admonished me for worrying about eclampsia until 2-3 weeks into nursing when the demand was higher, and 3 days later... it happened, and could have been deadly. So the breeders here, with their experience have much to share and tha's why I was so cautious about the eclampsia.

Thanks so much for all your comments and advice ! How are your babies doing at 8 weeks ? Do you have good families for all of them ? Our babies were just 4 weeks today, and they bring such joy to our whole family. If you don't mind me asking, how much are you selling your pups for ? Mine are pretty much spoken for from family members, but they still intend to pay for them. I have an idea of how much to ask, as I paid $650 for my little girl a while back, but I really am not sure. Lucy is not a show dog or anything, just a wonderful temperment amazing little girl. Loves everyone... totally wonderful. Wow, Kendra.. not sure about you but the whole breeding thing has been big bucks, especially the hand feeding thing. No problem though.. I was prepared for anything but Wow !! To do it right, it costs big bucks for sure ! Thanks again for your message. Keep in touch, and I'll do the same. Time for the last feeding then finally sleep for me !!

[kjcmsw]

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