It's 2010. People don't want to put their yorkies out in a barn all day so they can play.

Next, the hunting dogs are in the field, water dogs to the pond? Originally bred means just this. Not to mention, this is pertaining to the standard. If you are breeding outside of it, nothing matters.

Good point ^ Yorkies are no longer ratters...doesn't mean they can't or won't (and most WILL), but today they're companions... they're still terrier and posess ratting instincts but aren't bred to serve specifically that purpose. :) I don't see breeders advertising great ratters for sale LOL but rather great companions.
But hopefully we continue to uphold/protect the standard and never loose some of the wonderful characteristics of the Yorkshire Terrier. :D


Woogie Man- Thanks for posting the two. Very intersting to compare. :)

This is what I was trying to get at...the differences in the standards. It's not about how we treat our dogs, but does the standard protect the integrity of the dog's original purpose. What I'm seeing is a vagueness in the American standard that *could* lead to our dog's drifting away from their terrier roots.

I'm all for a beautiful dog. Yorkshires are 'fancy' terriers, after all. I don't want to someday see the Yorkshire morph into a blue and tan Maltese, however. Shouldn't a standard explicitly address all critical points of a breed's characteristics? I could have thrown the Canadian standard in the mix, too, but that would only confuse things more. It differs somewhat from the KC standard, but does address a couple of points the American standard doesn't.

I live in a farmhouse and each spring and fall little field mice find there way into my home. I, being an animal lover, use live traps for them and set them free 2 miles from my home. Well that is no small feat in this house. In the morning, all 6 dogs make a beeline from the bedroom to the kitchen. It is a mad dash, each yorkie to himself. They all run to the 4 areas where I set up these traps and sniff and listen. Then they have the scent or sound and go nuts. It is unreal the barking and growling that goes on. I do not even need to check most of the time, I just go to where the pack is and Mickey is there in the trap. Then I have to "fight" my way through these "ratters" to get the mouse out of the house and me in one piece. The dogs are jumping and trying to get it.

One time and one time only a mouse had the unfortunate demise by A.J. the one in red on my avatar. She caught one that was bold enough to come into the main part of the kitchen and she was on it in 2 seconds flat. She picked it up and shook it to death before I even saw what she had:eek:. I called exterminators but they do the sticky traps and those are inhumane to me. I chose these humane live ones. She is the one that goes in the yard digging at small holes for chipmunks and leads the pack on the hunt. But they all join in by standing by waiting for one to pop out and try to catch it.

My dad told me that because of the foundation my home is on (rocks) there is not a solution to stop them from coming without putting a whole new foundation on a 110 year old house.

So I think that function and beauty are important in the Yorkie. Why can they not have both? I mean they are terriers and were bred to do a function. Over the years they have been bred to become the beauties that they are now but that ratting instinct and terrier traits should still be in that little spunky pretty package.

Although Radar lives in wraps and is gorgeous ( at least to me ) he's all terrier...he lays at my feet on guard at all times as are my other yorkies...it's funny when the hubby walks in the room they bark at him and a semi growl because they are protecting their mom. Any noise they hear in the backyard off the chair or floor they fly out the doggie door they go. Chases birds and cats out of the yard. They are my perfect guard dogs and "yes" I said guard dogs in small packages.
I dont' think any breeder that I know is breeding out the terrier attitude nor keeps it out of the standard. Everyone I know wants nothing but attitude. While we have pretty dogs in the ring doesn't mean that terrier attitude is extinct! Every time I'm grooming or at ringside and a big dog walks by I have to keep Radar from wanting to fly off the ringside table from wanting to go after the bigger dog. He does live in wraps but he's all dog, terrier, lover, lap dog, bed warmer, dirt digger, grass grabber, face kisser ect...not a bad life for a dog.

I understand your concern. This is a yorkshire terrier. As we both know it's not a yorkshire terrier ratter. :D We can't loose sight of the terrier part because they won't let us. :D

Most but maybe not all dogs when bred for show they are keep in wraps to protect the coats from damage and often restricted to cages.
They are not allowed to romp and play with other dog for fear of the other dogs ripping out the wraps along with hair.
So you can say most are restricted for about the first 2 years or until they win CH titles.
I think most agree that taking pups away from mom to early can effect development.
So just how much damage is done to the dogs natural instincts during puppyhood and early adulthood if they are not allow to developed them in that critical time peroid ?

For good intent. As we've evolved beyond from the horse and buggy days where people are living on farms and barns being the norm. Same holds true for the evolution of standards. Take a look at the affinpincher. No, the BOXER. WHO IN THE RIGHT MIND APPROVES DOG FIGHTING? The standard is a benchmark to strive for. Breed true to it or not at all.

I don't know any exhibitors who restrict their show dogs in any way to grow coat..granted I'm a newbie, but I dont' knwo why show dogs IN GENERAL have to be shown in a negative light when it's really not true. Granted I know there are some that are restrict to cages to grow coat which is very sad, but most? I wouldn't say so. The show dogs I know are allowed to be dogs, and romp and play. They're in wraps yes but do everything a dog does... wraps do not restrict a dog, don't hurt a dog, and do not prohibit them from being dogs. I don't agree with getting all the titles at whatever cost, but I find most the exhibitors at dog shows treat their dogs no differently than pets and still have have their sights set straight ie. on the standard rather than titles.

I agree, Most of the breeders I know they wrap their dogs coats and put a wrapping jacket on the dog and the dogs are not restricted in anything. Think of it this way women put curlers in their hair and they still do other things. Anyway there are some that do keep their dogs restricted just like there are some who do whatever it takes to get a title on the dog they are showing, but not all of us are like that.

This was posted on another thread and if anyone would care to watch, I think you would have to agree that when you breed for specific traits you often don't know how that might affect other traits. Could it be that by breeding for the confirmation ring (pretty coats specifically) the terrier instinct is being diminished?

I realize that Donna, Gail and possibly a few others might not keep their yorkies crated but I don't think they are the typical show breeder. From what I've experienced most show breeders do keep their yorkies crated, they don't free roam in their homes, nor allowed to play in yards. It's one of the aspects of being a show breeder that I've always thought was sad, that their yorkies are for the most part caged animals....loved (?) yes, but still caged.

I've posted before about the temperament of my 3, a show breeders dog, a puppymill girl and my parti yorkie....of the 3, Razz my parti boy has retained the most terrier like personality.

I don't really understand how those that show can be so adamant that blue/tan are to be striven for bc that is what the original breeders of yorkies intended the dog to be...a blue/tan terrier. But, then those same show breeders don't think the "ratting" instinct is of equivalent importance, when it obviously was important to those original breeders????.....Elle???

I saw the video earlier. It's interesting. I have to wonder what inbreeding co-efficient those foxes had and how much (if anything) that had to do with it.

What I've asked in this thread is if the American standard is too vague and if that vagueness could lead to loose interpretations of the standard that could affect the breed over time.

Something I've noticed is that a Yorkshire is not fully mature at the age at which many are being championed. Most here would agree that the coat doesn't mature until 2-3 years yet many dogs are championed at just over a year. How would some of those dogs fare if judged at 2-3 years? Would the coat still be the correct color? Would the proportions of the dog change? Does the standard apply to a 15 month old dog the same as it would for a 3 year old?

I can say that my dogs definitely show quite a few changes between those ages. Early on, they show more snout and look a little 'lankier' until they hit the 2 year+ mark. Then the skull fills out and the nose looks more in proportion and they fill out and lose the lanky look to the body and are a more balanced dog overall. I think they would stand a better chance in the ring later rather than sooner.

I know there are some dogs that have long show careers and win for several years. I wonder if some of those championed early on would do as well later in life. Obviously for dogs shown in the puppy class allowances are made for the age, but for those in the 12-18 month class, are they judged the same as a veteran dog? If so, isn't that mis-applying the standard and couldn't that affect the breed's traits over time? I don't yet show so these are just questions I have, but are things I wonder about.

Exactly! Every show dog I've known has a great life and are very much terriers. :) It's not most show breeders who cage...it's the ones that breed for titles instead of bettering to the standard. In my experience they are def the minority to the ones who treat their dogs as pets and let them be dogs and rule their roost. :)
But there seems to be an ax to grind with show dogs...


Great thread- sorry to take a bit off topic. :p

Back on track...
I do like some of the specifics of the KC standard compared to the YTCA standard. It's hard in our standard with all of the "not too"s.
Very interesting point with the puppies. I didn't show in conformation until my girl was 2 years...she did very well and I liked that she had full coat. But I think puppy classes ARE judge a bit differently bc their coats (faces) haven't cleared but they aren't faulted for it since they're young and still clearing.
ETA I don't really see that as a mis-interpretation of the standard because it says they're born black and slowly clear to their adult colors. I guess the big question is WILL they clear, and I think most of them do.

It is why in Latvia and other european countries the final awarding of the CH waits until 3yrs. you must finish the dog once full coat is in.

In terms of temperament I certainly would like to see the AKC standard include a section on correct terrier temperament for the Yorkie.

Here is what CKC says that is Canadian Kennel Club

Temperament

The keenly alert air of the terrier is characteristic. He is intelligent,friendly, and willing to please.

And Under General Appearance:
The dog’s high head carriage and alert expression give the

appearance of self-confidence, a sparkling and vigorous manner

I do like that they have said "friendly" in their temperament description, as well as willing to please. I think this speaks to the companion aspect of our terrier, and how they so wonderfully fulfill that for their owners.

Most of the show breeders I know don't keep their show dogs caged that are breeder/owner/handlers. I know handlers that show them most are crated due to safety concerns and I can understand that. I think honestly times have change regarding not letting the show dogs play and be a normal dog because it's seen everyday they can be beautiful and have the attitude of what we see in the ring without being crated/caged.
Again, it may have been in the past that the show dogs weren't allowed to play and be a dog but all the ones I see and that I'm around and that's alot...they have either free fun of the house or a huge dog room and not caged or crated...