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-   -   Genetics (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/207314-genetics.html)

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 04:35 AM
Genetics
 
I have to follow up on a topic with faults and genetics....

I'll start off by saying I do not know everything about genetics but it was said that the color or off color in the yorkies is not caused by genetics well I have to disagree because just like a bad ear set, under bite, overshot bite, wrong coat texture, bad topline, low tail set ect....all plays into genetics. The reason we breed to standard is just that...genetics play a BIG part in breeding.
Knowing a dog has a bad rear, bad fronts or a bad topline you don't breed that animal because you'll pick up those "GENES" and that is "genetics". Just as in color it's in the "GENES"! So, being called wrong in that color is not genetic. The yorkie has to be a "CARRIER" which in terms means "GENETICS".
So when breeding and you get all those faults it's in the "GENES" of the dog your breeding so therefore it's "GENETIC".
Had to clear that up :)

Donna

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 04:44 AM
Let me also add....when breeding to the standard set forth by the YTCA for the "Yorkshire Terrier" you want to breed out the faults that are not desired for what the standard calls for. Until that changes the off color yorkie is not within the standard set forth by the YTCA and not allowed to show in AKC shows. I'm not saying they are not a yorkshire terrier but they do not conform to the standard. Until that changes (which is not going to change anytime in the near future) one must strive to keep the breed standard as close as possible. Although, the off color yorkie is not a life threatening genetic fault it is considered a major fault within the yorkie standard just like a bad topline, bad ear set, undershot bite, overshot bite, bad fronts and bad rears...not good traits to have to conform to the yorkie standard.

Donna

topknot 06-29-2010 04:45 AM
i too have to agree with you too Donna. It is always genetics, just like eye and hair color plays a role in our DNA. It is all genetics.

Now, sometimes, if a yorkie lost some of their coat/hair from an accident or health problem in a particular area on them, this area will most always grow back darker than before. But this would be different. I am not talking about grooming where you clip the area, but where hair is lost from the skin completely.

But just normal hair color, structure, bites, ears, etc... - this is genetics.

Disney 06-29-2010 04:47 AM
Yes I agree it's genetics. I think the argument with the Biewer/Parti is that it is a fault that should be accepted into the standard, not that it not genetic throwback.

topknot 06-29-2010 04:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180434)
Let me also add....when breeding to the standard set forth by the YTCA for the "Yorkshire Terrier" you want to breed out the faults that are not desired for what the standard calls for. Until that changes the off color yorkie is not within the standard set forth by the YTCA and not allowed to show in AKC shows. I'm not saying they are not a yorkshire terrier but they do not conform to the standard. Until that changes (which is not going to change anytime in the near future) one must strive to keep the breed standard as close as possible. Although, the off color yorkie is not a life threatening genetic fault it is considered a major fault within the yorkie standard just like a bad topline, bad ear set, undershot bite, overshot bite, bad fronts and bad rears...not good traits to have to conform to the yorkie standard.

Donna
Yes! I think we all need to remember why we fell in love with this breed and to keep to the standard. If we do not stick with this, we change the breed into something that is not the breed and not what it was meant to be. JMO

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180436)
Yes I agree it's genetics. I think the argument with the Biewer/Parti is that it is a fault that should be accepted into the standard, not that it not genetic throwback.
A bad topline or a low tail set is a genetic throwback....you get the idea :)

Well, yes of course it's wanted to be accepted but unfortunately it's not going too because it's not what a standard yorkie should look like but of course that is my opinion. In my opinion a black and tan yorkie shouldn't be accepted in the show ring either because it's not the desired look. But it's in the color section of the AKC accepted colors but I won't show a "black" and tan yorkie in the show ring nor try to breed for the "black" and tan yorkie. Although, I think they are pretty and nothing against them they shouldn't be shown because it's NOT correct just like the Parti color. Not that I don't think they are pretty they just aren't what the standard calls for. It's called following a simple rule and it's the standard.

Donna

Mardelin 06-29-2010 04:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180434)
Let me also add....when breeding to the standard set forth by the YTCA for the "Yorkshire Terrier" you want to breed out the faults that are not desired for what the standard calls for. Until that changes the off color yorkie is not within the standard set forth by the YTCA and not allowed to show in AKC shows. I'm not saying they are not a yorkshire terrier but they do not conform to the standard. Until that changes (which is not going to change anytime in the near future) one must strive to keep the breed standard as close as possible. Although, the off color yorkie is not a life threatening genetic fault it is considered a major fault within the yorkie standard just like a bad topline, bad ear set, undershot bite, overshot bite, bad fronts and bad rears...not good traits to have to conform to the yorkie standard.

Donna
Absolutely Donna,

Let me add the off colored yorkie is identified as a fault within the standard, and the only fault that a dog can be Disqualified for in the ring. With that said; the AKC/YTCA has placed that much importance on it.

As you said color fault is not life threatening.....however, born blue pups have been known to have health issues.

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180444)
A bad topline or a low tail set is a genetic throwback....you get the idea :)

Well, yes of course it's wanted to be accepted but unfortunately it's not going too because it's not what a standard yorkie should look like but of course that is my opinion. In my opinion a black and tan yorkie shouldn't be accepted in the show ring either because it's not the desired look. But it's in the color section of the AKC accepted colors but I won't show a "black" and tan yorkie in the show ring nor try to breed for the "black" and tan yorkie. Although, I think they are pretty and nothing against them they shouldn't be shown because it's NOT correct just like the Parti color. Not that I don't think they are pretty they just aren't what the standard calls for. It's called following a simple rule and it's the standard.

Donna
Let me add...I LOVE my black and tan yorkie she's the love of my life but she's not for the show ring :)

Disney 06-29-2010 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180444)
A bad topline or a low tail set is a genetic throwback....you get the idea :)

Well, yes of course it's wanted to be accepted but unfortunately it's not going too because it's not what a standard yorkie should look like but of course that is my opinion. In my opinion a black and tan yorkie shouldn't be accepted in the show ring either because it's not the desired look. But it's in the color section of the AKC accepted colors but I won't show a "black" and tan yorkie in the show ring nor try to breed for the "black" and tan yorkie. Although, I think they are pretty and nothing against them they shouldn't be shown because it's NOT correct just like the Parti color. Not that I don't think they are pretty they just aren't what the standard calls for. It's called following a simple rule and it's the standard.

Donna
You know what? I think I agree with you! All yorkies should be loved but black and tan and partis should just be adored pets, not for the show.

Disney 06-29-2010 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3180445)
As you said color fault is not life threatening.....however, born blue pups have been known to have health issues.
Wow really? What sort of health risk?

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 05:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180450)
Wow really? What sort of health risk?
I know blue born yorkies can have major skin issues as in coat loss and all sorts of skin issues. Not sure what the other health issues are but I've seen an adult blue born yorkie and oh the skin issue and coat loss was sad looking. Although the yorkie was otherwise healthy but the skin issue wasn't or isn't something I would want. The yorkie is loved and cared for and was/is the love of my friends life it was just sad to see what she had to do to keep the skin healthy.

Donna

Disney 06-29-2010 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180453)
I know blue born yorkies can have major skin issues as in coat loss and all sorts of skin issues. Not sure what the other health issues are but I've seen an adult blue born yorkie and oh the skin issue and coat loss was sad looking. Although the yorkie was otherwise healthy but the skin issue wasn't or isn't something I would want. The yorkie is loved and cared for and was/is the love of my friends life it was just sad to see what she had to do to keep the skin healthy.

Donna
Skin issue like dandruff or allergy sort of thing?

By blue born pup, do you mean instead of being born black and tan, they is blue and tan? What kind of breeding produces that? Or is that when the dogs not tested before mating?

Tnyorkiemom 06-29-2010 05:10 AM
blue born yorkies are known to have heart issues....also from what i have read they dont live as long as "standard" yorkies.....i read that on ask.com once!!

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180454)
Skin issue like dandruff or allergy sort of thing?

By blue born pup, do you mean instead of being born black and tan, they is blue and tan? What kind of breeding produces that? Or is that when the dogs not tested before mating?
I think hers were allergy related didn't look like dandruff just patches of hair loss and with no hair. Yes, it's born blue not much tan. It's a gene that the yorkie has but if breeding is done correctly it should not show up but again, playing with genetics it can happen. There is not a test to show what carries the blue born pup that I know of. I don't know much about the blue born puppies as I've never had one and how it happens but that is genetics. Complicated for sure.
Donna

Disney 06-29-2010 05:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnyorkiemom (Post 3180458)
blue born yorkies are known to have heart issues....also from what i have read they dont live as long as "standard" yorkies.....i read that on ask.com once!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180459)
I think hers were allergy related didn't look like dandruff just patches of hair loss and with no hair. Yes, it's born blue not much tan. It's a gene that the yorkie has but if breeding is done correctly it should not show up but again, playing with genetics it can happen. There is not a test to show what carries the blue born pup that I know of. I don't know much about the blue born puppies as I've never had one and how it happens but that is genetics. Complicated for sure.
Donna
Wow...With those kind of issue just reiterates the importance of testing and breeding as close to standard as possible for healthy puppies.

Mardelin 06-29-2010 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180454)
Skin issue like dandruff or allergy sort of thing?

By blue born pup, do you mean instead of being born black and tan, they is blue and tan? What kind of breeding produces that? Or is that when the dogs not tested before mating?
They are actually bluish gray in color.

Major skin issues that contribute to losing coat. These dogs do not have the ability to grow coat.

These dogs can crop up in a breeding at any time. What contributes to them is putting the wrong two dogs together.

Remember every dog can have the required tests performed. Tests only tell you that the dogs do not have a disease, they do not tell you if the dog is a carrier of a problem. There is no genetic marker that informs you of that.

Disney 06-29-2010 05:15 AM
So what do you do to attempt and prevent this sort of thing?

topknot 06-29-2010 05:16 AM
Blue born pups - most of them can also not live to maturity. So this is a huge health risk. You do not want a blue born.

Black and tan yorkies (that are black and tan as adults) usually are your woolies. I have one that I got many years ago as a pet and is neutered. I would never want to breed him, since he is not to standard. My feeling is - if you cannot show them, why breed them?? :thumbup:

One should want to uphold the standard and to do right by the breed. Breeding is a very serious science and not to be dabbled in lightly without knowing what you are doing - reason you need educated mentors to teach you. Some mentors are good and some are not. So when choosing a mentor, one needs to choose wisely.

Brooklynn 06-29-2010 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180460)
Wow...With those kind of issue just reiterates the importance of testing and breeding as close to standard as possible for healthy puppies.
My dear, I think you got it :)

Tnyorkiemom 06-29-2010 05:16 AM
yes Disney..you dont want to have a blue born yorkie..........this is the thing with them........you can have perfectly healthy tested mommy and daddy....always throw standards for litters and litters ....and then all of a sudden throw a blue..........it is a recessive gene....and from my understanding the MARS test is the only one that the gene shows up with......the basic testing that is done on dams and sires prior to breeding doesnt show it.

topknot 06-29-2010 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180465)
So what do you do to attempt and prevent this sort of thing?
Research and educating one self with genetics and learning the pedigree lines (and researching them). Learn as much as you can. There is a breeding seminar in Atlanta in Sept. I will be going to this even though I have been in yorkies for many, many years. One should always continue learning about all they can on this subject if one is breeding.

Mardelin 06-29-2010 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180465)
So what do you do to attempt and prevent this sort of thing?
You don't breed the pair again.

But, it does go to show you that breeding the Yorkshire Terrier it is one of the most difficult breeds to breed.

While studying genetics is a great asset, there is no absolutes in this breed. As most breeders will tell the breed is difficult to get exacts with. You can't breed pheno type to pheno type as you do with say Poodles and know what you're going to produce. Most judges will tell you that it is a difficult breed to judge. No absolutes.

Disney 06-29-2010 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by topknot (Post 3180466)
Blue born pups - most of them can also not live to maturity. So this is a huge health risk. You do not want a blue born.

Black and tan yorkies (that are black and tan as adults) usually are your woolies. I have one that I got many years ago as a pet and is neutered. I would never want to breed him, since he is not to standard. My feeling is - if you cannot show them, why breed them?? :thumbup:

One should want to uphold the standard and to do right by the breed. Breeding is a very serious science and not to be dabbled in lightly without knowing what you are doing - reason you need educated mentors to teach you. Some mentors are good and some are not. So when choosing a mentor, one needs to choose wisely.
That is perfect way to say it! May I use that as my signature?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 3180467)
My dear, I think you got it :)
Thanks you! This is all so incredibly interesting, I cannot seem to learn enough fast enough! I am starving for information! The next five/six years will be filled with research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnyorkiemom (Post 3180468)
yes Disney..you dont want to have a blue born yorkie..........this is the thing with them........you can have perfectly healthy tested mommy and daddy....always throw standards for litters and litters ....and then all of a sudden throw a blue..........it is a recessive gene....and from my understanding the MARS test is the only one that the gene shows up with......the basic testing that is done on dams and sires prior to breeding doesnt show it.
So which tests do you breeders perform? Do you perform before every mating even if the dam and sire have been tested before?

Disney 06-29-2010 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3180470)
You don't breed the pair again.

But, it does go to show you that breeding the Yorkshire Terrier it is one of the most difficult breeds to breed.

While studying genetics is a great asset, there is no absolutes in this breed. As most breeders will tell the breed is difficult to get exacts with. You can't breed pheno type to pheno type as you do with say Poodles and know what you're going to produce. Most judges will tell you that it is a difficult breed to judge. No absolutes.
Is this why we see so many more health issue on the forum? I've never even heard of some of these illness in other breed. How much of these illness could be prevented by responsible breeding?

What is it about the Yorkshire Terrier genetic makeup that makes them so much more at risk?

rbelland 06-29-2010 05:27 AM
Mary mentioned a seminar with Dr. Centers. I would be very interested in attending.

Does anyone know when/where they are scheduled?

Mardelin 06-29-2010 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180473)
Is this why we see so many more health issue on the forum? I've never even heard of some of these illness in other breed. How much of these illness could be prevented by responsible breeding?

What is it about the Yorkshire Terrier genetic makeup that makes them so much more at risk?
Each breed has it's own set of problems. Maltese has a very high insidence of Liver Shunt. Every Toy breed is plagued with Luxating Patellas.

What is happened with the Yorkshire Terrier is that it became such a popular breed and people saw a money making business and decided to capitilize on it. These breeders only perpetuated health issues by breeding indiscrimenatly....not taking the precautions, hence that is why you see so many health issues on this forum.

Breeding is not anything to take lightly. It takes years and years of studying before one should embark on it.

Mardelin 06-29-2010 05:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbelland (Post 3180474)
Mary mentioned a seminar with Dr. Centers. I would be very interested in attending.

Does anyone know when/where they are scheduled?
Usually held at Dog shows......I don't think Dr. Centers has a website showing a schedule. Most breed clubs contact her prior to a show and request her seminars.

topknot 06-29-2010 05:35 AM
Quote:
Disney;3180473]Is this why we see so many more health issue on the forum? I've never even heard of some of these illness in other breed. How much of these illness could be prevented by responsible breeding?
Many people have bought from mills, backyard breeders, or are breeding their pets. It is a cycle. When you buy substandard yorkies and breed substandard yorkies, you get problems. And this cycle gets worse when testing and education is not done.

Disney 06-29-2010 05:35 AM
Well luckily Yorkie not common breed at all in Australia so we don't have yorkie puppy mill.

I completely agree on the years it takes before you breed. I'm taking five/six years of study before I even begin to SHOW yorkie. If I ever bred, it wouldn't be for tenish years and I would breed purely for the ring.

Cha Cha 06-29-2010 05:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disney (Post 3180473)
Is this why we see so many more health issue on the forum? I've never even heard of some of these illness in other breed. How much of these illness could be prevented by responsible breeding?

What is it about the Yorkshire Terrier genetic makeup that makes them so much more at risk?
There are lots of breeds of dogs (and many other species of animals for that matter) that have color specific diseases or health issues. Color can be just an undesireable trait, or it can be the mask for someting far more serious or fatal depending on the circumstance/species of animal. Many of these diseases can be prevented by responsible, knowledgeable breeding practices.


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