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Breeding and Liver Shunts I did a lot of reading before buying my first Yorkshire Terrier and did even more before I decided to breed for the first time. I know there are many hereditary diseases that Yorkies are prone to and I feel that I took all necessary measures to prevent these problems in my line. Both my male and female had Bile Acid Levels within normal limits pre and post. I bred my dogs again and shortly after, I found out that one of the pups from their last litter has liver shunt. My female is already pregnant and expecting a litter from the same male as the last litter. I know in an ideal situation you would not breed the parents of a liver shunt puppy, at least to each other, again. But it has already happened. I wanted to know what you guys would do, as breeders and yorkie owners, if you were in this situation. This was going to be my last litter for awhile, and at least with these dogs anyways, but I still have the problem. Thank you. |
I'm not a breeder, just an owner, but wow, you do have a dilemma. My hat's off to you for wanting to do the right thing. I think at the very least you should be ready to hold onto the litter until they are old enough to have their liver function tested (BAT's, whatever is necessary) just to certify that they don't have the problem. By that time, they will be old enough to spay/neuter, so you should go ahead and get that done before placing them, just to ensure that they remain as pets only and don't pass on the genes if case they could possibly be carriers. |
Thanks for your reply. I was thinking about keeping them until 16 weeks when I could get their BAT done. No matter what these puppies will be sold with limited registration, the pups from my last litter were all spayed/neutered and this is how they found out that one of them had a liver shunt. The pup showed no signs but the blood levels were off. The other two had no problems with their blood levels, but one did. But now that I know that the genes for liver shunt is somewhere in the line, I will make sure the pups will be spayed/neutered before hand or on a spay/neuter contract with the new owners where they will get a portion of their money back once they send me proof of spay/neuter from the vet. This situation is not something to take light-hearted, but I know there are many breeders out there that would not have a second thought about it. |
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Now, in the case of the pup with Shunt. You are responsible, pay for the surgery. In the new litter. You maybe lucky and not have shunt show up again However, I would have the pups tested (per the Dr. Center Protocol, listed in the YTCA.org health section). There is a possibility that this new litter may not throw a shunt puppy. I say this based on Dr. Tobias research. However, if you are feeling nervous, uncomfortable and scared. Call Dr. Center and ask her advice on what her recommendations would be. |
As I said in my original post, I found out about the pup after the fact. |
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With the new BAT protocol....16 weeks and 6 months. It's so sad that they haven't come up with a genetic marker yet. It would help us in breeding the right two. Oh! no longer necessary to do a pre & post. By the way, how bad were the levels off, was the puppy on any meds, change of diet, etc. Is there plans to have a 2nd BAT done? |
It is sad that they have not found the genetic markers yet, that would make it much less stressful for breeders out there. I did not know it was not necessary to do pre and post now, thank you for that. I will remember that for the future. I do not know any of the information about the puppy that has the liver shunt. I had tried to keep in touch with the owner of the pup since she got the pup, but did not hear a response from her until the issues with the liver shunt. The owner could not give me any answers to the questions I had and the vet will not talk to me. I believe the procedure has been done already but I have no way to contact the owner of the pup other than through the person who bought the pup for her. Neither of them will give me a contact number. So I am kind of stuck right now. |
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Go to the YTCA.org website. Dr. Center explains the new protocol and the importance of how the blood is drawn. If done incorrectly, it can affect the levels. She also states that she is available to vets for assistance. |
I know this sounds harsh but if the bitch was just bred or just several weeks into the pregnancy I would have her spayed immediately. But like Mary said I would call Dr. Center herself! Donna Bird |
That is what I said Mary, and it is getting to the point where it is frustrating. I sent an e-mail to Dr. Center and will make a call into her tomorrow. Donna - My female is already 5 weeks along. I have been investing the last couple weeks in trying to get information from the owner of the puppy and/or their vet, unsuccessfully. I had thought about that originally and kind of pushed it out of my mind until now. I don't know that the vet will spay her now. I will look into that tomorrow too. |
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Mary, do you know the risks for the mother of getting her spayed this late in the pregnancy? |
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Do you have proof from the Vet that the puppy has shunt? |
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Thank you Mary. I will do so. Either way she will at least be spayed once the puppies are weaned. I was planning on doing this before the whole liver shunt issue. And No, I do not have any proof from the vet that the puppy had liver shunt. Another reason I held off on talking about getting my female spayed. |
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I would not consider spaying if it was my bitch..to me the solution would be quite simple...I would keep the pups until it was determined all was well... Why kill all on the off chance one may have a shunt? JMO..and respect others who see it differently. |
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This is an awful situation. It's a real shame that the owner will not speak to you. As a pet parent, you'd be the first to know something is wrong, and you'd be the person I would consider all options with. I hope all is well and your new litter is healthy. I hope that new owner gets off their high horse and talk to you. That's just not fair! |
I would not have the female spay either at this point. It seems odd that the people will not contact you or give you more information. I have heard of vets before claiming a pup had a liver shunt and later when they go to do surgery there is no shunt. I would want to see all the puppies records from the vet. How old was this pup when you sold it? I hope everything works out for you. |
I meant to say, if you were my breeder and I was the pet parent. Bjh, you're so right. That is just odd. How many complaints to we see on YT of new parents complaining of bad breeders. This one is reverse! |
It is a predicament Mary, and it is definitely not one I am taking lightly. I will probably just allow the pregnancy and take the hit myself if I have another puppy with liver shunt. And you are all right about it being hard to make any decisions without having vet records in front of me. I know when I have had problems with any of my other animals, my Airedale had problems with his hips from growing too fast, I let the breeders know first thing. They may not be vets but they are 'specialists' so to say in the breed that they are dealing with, and if they don't know the right information, they know someone that will. Or at least most breeders are that way, and I would do anything I could for the pups of my litters. Bjh and dvlsh, you are right and thank you ALL for your support and help. What breaks my heart is that I know the owners of this pup must be saying bad things about me and I had and still have no intentions of screwing anyone over. |
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I'm not seeing that from you at all. You are making every attempt to make things right. Another recommendation, have your vet attempt to contact their vet. Most will respond to one another as a courtesy. |
I think you are being very responsible and handling this very well. Unfortunately the owner of the pup that you think has liver shunt is not giving you much and I'm so sorry. Now if you knew for sure the puppy does/did have shunt I personally would spay the bitch even at 5 weeks simply because I wouldn't risk the chance of having a liver shunt baby. I'm more attached to the mom at this point and not the babies. My concern is always first the bitch, babies second and then future homes. I will always put the bitches well being before a litter of pups. But I feel for you and yes it's a very difficult position to be in and a decision for you and your vet. Please keep us posted. Donna |
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Donna |
Thank you Mary. I really appreciate that. Donna, I will talk to the vet and see what the risks of spaying the bitch are and use that to help my decision. Because you are very right, my female's health and safety will always come first. And I am worried about how spaying her now could affect her. |
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Donna |
Thank you. I will do that. |
Hi everyone. I know it has been a few weeks but I told you I would keep you posted. We decided to keep the litter and she had 4 pups. They are all doing really well and so has mom until today, she has vomitted a few times this evening. The puppies are two weeks old. Anyone else have problems with this before? I am keeping an eye on her and calling the vet first thing in the morning. Alyssa |
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