Are breeders required to do genetic testing?

[Brooklynn]

It's all in how the breeder handles the situtation and how they stand behind their breeding program. Health testing is very important but as Mary said, a breeding pair can test normal and produce a life threatening illness. Luxating patellas are very common in toy breeds. I wish more people would not jump into surgery for LP because it's not always necessary. I have 3 yorkies with LP and they are fine and show no signs of pain or limping and "YES" they are all spayed and neutered and so are the parents but LP doesn't always have to have surgery.
There isn't that genetic marker for Liver Shunt yet and we are hoping soon there will be it will make breeding a lot easier.

Donna

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

It's all in how the breeder handles the situtation and how they stand behind their breeding program. Health testing is very important but as Mary said, a breeding pair can test normal and produce a life threatening illness. Luxating patellas are very common in toy breeds. I wish more people would not jump into surgery for LP because it's not always necessary. I have 3 yorkies with LP and they are fine and show no signs of pain or limping and "YES" they are all spayed and neutered and so are the parents but LP doesn't always have to have surgery.
There isn't that genetic marker for Liver Shunt yet and we are hoping soon there will be it will make breeding a lot easier.

Donna

I agree as i do not like to see people doing LP surgery UNLESS the dog is in pain and lifting leg all the time or it is slipping out all the time and cry out in pain. I think too many rush into this type of surgery as well as the acl rupture surgery. DD has LP 4 and she had an acl injury a year ago jumping off doggie stairs wrong and i rested her for 2 months and she is totally fine today a year later. I consulted 2 orthos and 2 vets and three out of 4 said to rest for 2 mos then if not better surgery. The 4th a vet wanted to rush her in for acl surgery while doing a dental - SCARY.

[Brooklynn]

I'm hearing more and more that those that are having the LP surgery are having more problems several years after the surgery then those of us that just leave it alone. When I say leave it alone I mean my dogs are not in pain, not holding their leg up...they run the yard, still jump up and down on my furniture. I control mine with keeping their weight under control. I think people over react when they hear their yorkie has LP. They can live a long and normal life without LP surgery.
To the OP, I'm so sorry about your baby as it's sad to have your little one pass to rainbow bridge. I hope your breeder does not breed the parents and compensates you in some way.

Donna

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I'm hearing more and more that those that are having the LP surgery are having more problems several years after the surgery then those of us that just leave it alone. When I say leave it alone I mean my dogs are not in pain, not holding their leg up...they run the yard, still jump up and down on my furniture. I control mine with keeping their weight under control. I think people over react when they hear their yorkie has LP. They can live a long and normal life without LP surgery.
To the OP, I'm so sorry about your baby as it's sad to have your little one pass to rainbow bridge. I hope your breeder does not breed the parents and compensates you in some way.

Donna

yep some say it is to avoid arthritis but either way they get arthritis if they have surgery or not and then with surgery they have scar tissue on top of it. Best to supplement with cosequin if you know your dog has LP. There is a new procedure they are using too but it is expensive like 3k where they take fat from the dog and put it in the joints which is better than surgery but it is still new so will be interesting to see how that progresses. I joined orthodogs and conservative management group so i got to see both sides surgery vs conservative management and recommend everyone does this as well before doing a surgery like this. 80% of acl dogs in toy breed after 2 mos rest heal by scar tissue acting like the tendon like what happened with Dee Dee.

LP dogs you just have to be careful not to let them twist and turn like playing ball or frisbee where they make sharp turns as my dd was a big frisbee dog and we had to stop that Also keeping them from jumping up and down off the furniture but going up stairs or inclines does help strengthen their knees to avoid injury

[Brooklynn]

LP hasn't stopped mine from jumping up and down off my couch or chair. I have found if I keep the weight under control the better. They haven't pulled their leg up in over 2 years since their weight is controlled.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

LP hasn't stopped mine from jumping up and down off my couch or chair. I have found if I keep the weight under control the better. They haven't pulled their leg up in over 2 years since their weight is controlled.

totally agree I am strict with diet and measure out food as being over weight can cause all kinds of problems for them - NOW if i could just measure out my own food and be as disciplined lolllll

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I totally agree that breeders should do genetic testing. But, I reiterrate, that there is no genetic marker that informs a breeder that the breeding pair are not carriers. They can both test clear, but the wrong two bred may produce a pup with a life threatening genetic defect. So, while testing is important, it is also important that a breeder knows their lines. And what is more important; is how a breeder handles a life threatening situation. Will they stand behind their pups.

[WinstonMom]

I don't see luxating patella as a problem that is going to go away any time soon in any of the toy breeds. Although I agree that a grade 4 or grade 3 that shows up in a young pup is a genetic problem, a lot of toy dogs develop a grade 1 or 2 later in life from a life time of basically having a good time and doing what little dogs do, which is a lot of jumping and dancing around on their hind legs.
In my opinion, the groove that the patella rides in is shallow on all toy dogs but the patella is much more likely to luxate on a dog with poor structure over all. Yorkies with nicely structured rear legs will move with proper gait are less likely to put stress on the ligaments that hold the patella in place.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Let me add to this. Breeders should obtain testing for their breeding dogs. However, tests should performed at certain ages. Bile Acids 16 weeks and again at 6 months. There are 2 types of shunt genetic and aquired. Hips and knees in order to get a good OFA reading should be done at age 2. Cerfs for eyes. Heart, ears and full blood panel. While all these tests will tell you that your dog and/or pup is clear of genetic defects. It does not tell you if a breeding pair are carriers. So, all it takes is the wrong two dogs being bred and a horrible genetic defect can rear it's ugly head.

One must keep in mind that even the most reputable breeders can produce a pup with a life threatening genetic defect. What makes them reputable is how they handle a situation and if they stand behind their breeding......

Exactly.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by WinstonMom

I don't see luxating patella as a problem that is going to go away any time soon in any of the toy breeds. Although I agree that a grade 4 or grade 3 that shows up in a young pup is a genetic problem, a lot of toy dogs develop a grade 1 or 2 later in life from a life time of basically having a good time and doing what little dogs do, which is a lot of jumping and dancing around on their hind legs.
In my opinion, the groove that the patella rides in is shallow on all toy dogs but the patella is much more likely to luxate on a dog with poor structure over all. Yorkies with nicely structured rear legs will move with proper gait are less likely to put stress on the ligaments that hold the patella in place.

This is true about a grade 3 or 4 showing up in a young pup. LP isn't going to go away anytime soon because dogs are dogs and they do jump and run and play and it can be caused by an injury.
But what needs to be understood as well as no one needs to jump into surgery right away or even at all unless the dog is in pain and the knee won't pop back into place at all. A toy dog can live with LP for a long and healthy and happy life, why put it through a surgery that might develop more problems down the road. As I said in an earlier post, I know so many now that had the surgery and the pens are slipping and arthritis develops anyway and then surgery is required again to fix the slipped pen. Too many overreact when they hear LP...it's very common in "ALL" toy dogs.

Donna

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

It's all in how the breeder handles the situtation and how they stand behind their breeding program. Health testing is very important but as Mary said, a breeding pair can test normal and produce a life threatening illness. Luxating patellas are very common in toy breeds. I wish more people would not jump into surgery for LP because it's not always necessary. I have 3 yorkies with LP and they are fine and show no signs of pain or limping and "YES" they are all spayed and neutered and so are the parents but LP doesn't always have to have surgery.
There isn't that genetic marker for Liver Shunt yet and we are hoping soon there will be it will make breeding a lot easier.

Donna

Donna,

It appears that some many Vets have jumped on the band wagon and using LP surgery as the surgery of the month. One should always get a 2nd opinion from an Orthepedic Surgeon and not jump into surgery immediately. Even with grade 3 or 4 it should be monitored and only obtained if the dog is in pain and they are having difficulty in movement.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Donna,

It appears that some many Vets have jumped on the band wagon and using LP surgery as the surgery of the month. One should always get a 2nd opinion from an Orthepedic Surgeon and not jump into surgery immediately. Even with grade 3 or 4 it should be monitored and only obtained if the dog is in pain and they are having difficulty in movement.

Yuppers it's the surgery of the month....I do, however, agree the breeding pair should be monitored on how many or if anymore pups were produced with LP and then the breeding pair should be taken out of the program if more are produced but if a breeding pair only produced one pup with LP I don't think either one should be excluded from breeding.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Donna,

It appears that some many Vets have jumped on the band wagon and using LP surgery as the surgery of the month. One should always get a 2nd opinion from an Orthepedic Surgeon and not jump into surgery immediately. Even with grade 3 or 4 it should be monitored and only obtained if the dog is in pain and they are having difficulty in movement.

yep my dd is grade 4 as we had digital xray done when she hurt her acl and both back legs patella were out as you can see them on the xray - they were off to the side and could not be manipulated out at all it was like they were cemented out. She does great but it does leave them more susceptible to acl injuries but even with those 2 mos of rest and most create the scar tissue and do not need surgery. She only lifted her leg a couple times the first week but she was slow to get up at times when laying for a long time. They compensate with their other legs as well leaving them susceptible to injury but dd use to play 3 hrs of frisbee a night on tile and hardwood with no injury for years but now we stopped that sadly.

Her xrays were also sent to a radiologist for a second opinion which we paid $85 for that second opinion as well and she definitely is grade 4 but no way will i put her through surgery unless it was absolutely necessary as either way surgery or no surgery you will deal with issues as Donna has stated.

Just like when i need work done at my house i get 3 estimates prior. I do the same when it comes to my dogs or my health. I get more than one opinion before anything major would occur. So glad I waited on my DD as so many people kept telling me she needs to get surgery etc and I did my homework as I always do and why i pass this on alot when i see these injuries as i see way too many rush into it and it is not an easy surgery they move bones, etc and the recovery is tough on them too.

[dwerten]

Originally Posted by dwerten

yep my dd is grade 4 as we had digital xray done when she hurt her acl and both back legs patella were out as you can see them on the xray - they were off to the side and could not be manipulated out at all it was like they were cemented out. She does great but it does leave them more susceptible to acl injuries but even with those 2 mos of rest and most create the scar tissue and do not need surgery. She only lifted her leg a couple times the first week but she was slow to get up at times when laying for a long time. They compensate with their other legs as well leaving them susceptible to injury but dd use to play 3 hrs of frisbee a night on tile and hardwood with no injury for years but now we stopped that sadly.

Her xrays were also sent to a radiologist for a second opinion which we paid $85 for that second opinion as well and she definitely is grade 4 but no way will i put her through surgery unless it was absolutely necessary as either way surgery or no surgery you will deal with issues as Donna has stated.

Just like when i need work done at my house i get 3 estimates prior. I do the same when it comes to my dogs or my health. I get more than one opinion before anything major would occur. So glad I waited on my DD as so many people kept telling me she needs to get surgery etc and I did my homework as I always do and why i pass this on alot when i see these injuries as i see way too many rush into it and it is not an easy surgery they move bones, etc and the recovery is tough on them too.

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sic...-after-lp.html

post #92 is the report that was written up for Dee Dee so you can see not the greatest yet she does fine. I know we will be dealing with arthritis with her and if her allergies permits it I will do cosequin as she turns 6 this year.

She is from an akc breeder and has hypothyroid, mvd, atopic dermatitis, and LP4 - Basically a mess. The breeder told me she was an accident and she was limited AKC - but i was a new pet owner back then and no idea what that all meant but i sure do now. I am glad she is with me though as she gets the best care so sometimes we get these babies for a reason and it is to learn from them and because we can care for them. I wish I did my homework first sometimes as she was from the Penny Saver lolll no penny saving here. Now my friend paid $3500 for a yorkie from a show breeder and he had liver shunt and has 25% use of his kidneys. It happens even with the best of intentions. So I agree with what mary said it depends on what the breeder does after. I never asked the breeder for anything as i never knew I could and when I told her about dd allergies, etc she said she never had a dog with allergies so I just went on the journey on my own sadly and why I try to educate other people to do better than I did and when they are dealt a bad hand I try to help them.

[scrapindee]

So sorry for the loss of your dog. What is important is what the breeder does after being notified, which includes on following up on other siblings in that litter and other breedings of the parents. A good breeder should have this infomation from all puppies from all litters--I tell folks who buy my puppies that in reality they are buying me first for forever.

Please keep us posted when you hear from your breeder. Again sorry for your loss.