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-   -   ? papers (https://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/200579-papers.html)

JeanieK 03-30-2010 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3061554)
There should be no difference in price with or without "AKC" papers. When there is a difference in price it is whether the dog comes with Limited Registration (no breeding rights) or Open Registration (breeding rights)

Evidently this breeder is unscrupulous.....find another breeder.

Let me add....there are more important things to worry about....has this puppy been vet checked, shots update, a good representation of the breed, does he come with a minimum of a year guarantee?
I think it is a bit unfair to call the breeder unscrupulous with so little information. Apparently she could have gotten the papers had she been willing to pay for them.

As I stated before, a breeder might do this to keep someone from registering with another registry in order to register the puppies. To my understanding, With NO papers they cannot register them with any registry.

Nancy1999 03-30-2010 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanieK (Post 3061814)
I think it is a bit unfair to call the breeder unscrupulous with so little information. Apparently she could have gotten the papers had she been willing to pay for them.

As I stated before, a breeder might do this to keep someone from registering with another registry in order to register the puppies. To my understanding, With NO papers they cannot register them with any registry.
She can still register puppies with other registries even though she has no papers, just not with the AKC, however, I would not suggest she does this.

The reason I believe that the breeder is unscrupulous is that the buyer says,
"when i agreed to buy the puppy she gave me a price then she told me if i wanted papers it would be more money when i went to pick him up 3 hours away. "

So the breeder told her yes the dogs were registered, and gave her a price, however, when she drove to the breeder's house, which was over three hours away, the breeder wanted more money than originally stated. The breeder should have made this clear over the phone, and it sounds like this wasn't told to her until she visited the breeder's house.

Mardelin 03-30-2010 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3061866)
She can still register puppies with other registries even though she has no papers, just not with the AKC, however, I would not suggest she does this.

The reason I believe that the breeder is unscrupulous is that the buyer says,
"when i agreed to buy the puppy she gave me a price then she told me if i wanted papers it would be more money when i went to pick him up 3 hours away. "

So the breeder told her yes the dogs were registered, and gave her a price, however, when she drove to the breeder's house, which was over three hours away, the breeder wanted more money than originally stated. The breeder should have made this clear over the phone, and it sounds like this wasn't told to her until she visited the breeder's house.
Yes, the breeder is unscrupulous.....offering a puppy without papers for one price and with papers another. As I stated before the only time there should be a difference in price is with breeding rights or without breeding rights. However, I'm writing in generalization terms, if one just wanted to breed, they'd breed anyway...papers or no papers.

You're right Nancy, yes you can register in another registry without papers. You can even do that with AKC, it is called a Q registry.....this type of AKC register is allowed when parents are in question......the Q is in place for 3 generations, then whalla......it goes away and you have an AKC registered dog. YTCA has a database in place with those dogs being registered in the Q registration....

Nancy1999 03-30-2010 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3061873)
Yes, the breeder is unscrupulous.....offering a puppy without papers for one price and with papers another. As I stated before the only time there should be a difference in price is with breeding rights or without breeding rights. However, I'm writing in generalization terms, if one just wanted to breed, they'd breed anyway...papers or no papers.

You're right Nancy, yes you can register in another registry without papers. You can even do that with AKC, it is called a Q registry.....this type of AKC register is allowed when parents are in question......the Q is in place for 3 generations, then whalla......it goes away and you have an AKC registered dog. YTCA has a database in place with those dogs being registered in the Q registration....

I'm not really comfortable with breeders selling a dog for more just because it has breeding rights. I can understand selling a dog for more if it's a puppy that may be suitable for showing, but I don't think you can tell if a 12-week-old puppy is breeding material, can you, er maybe YOU can!

Don't really like the idea of Q registry, do you have some links, so I can learn more?

DvlshAngel985 03-30-2010 10:49 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see where the OP says she got her pup for a cheaper price because of no papers.

But if that is the case, that both parents have registration papers and your new pup doesn't (either open or limited) something sounds fishy to me. Did the breeder give a reason for not giving you papers or did they just say, "$X more for registration?" To me, the information provided makes me think the breeder has 2 dogs that have limited registration (no permission to breed) and bred them anyway. The litter then is not qualified for registration with the AKC, but she could register the pups with a different registry.

BamaFan121s 03-30-2010 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985 (Post 3061892)
Maybe I'm missing something, I don't see where the OP says she got her pup for a cheaper price because of no papers.
See Posts #3 and #11 by the OP. She said that the breeder told her it would be more $$$ if she wanted the dog's papers.:)

I don't know what the breeder's reasoning for doing this was, but regardless, it should have been explained to the OP in advance, not mentioned for the first time when she got there to pick the dog up. Likewise, the point should have made a point to nail down such specifics in advance as well.

BonBon 03-30-2010 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smommyto5 (Post 3061585)
No i didnt know about papers till i went to pick him up and she told me if i wanted papers it would be more money but she never said how much more
and for a agreement we never made one i never signed anything .
and all i was doing was asking a ? about them. i didnt mean to ruffle any bodys feathers.
You didn't ruffle anyone's feathers here. You asked an excellent question!! :)

It's your breeder that everyone here is upset with. I see you're new, so let me just tell you that the people who have responded to you here are either excellent, respected breeders themselves or those (like me) who strongly support ethical breeders who believe in doing things the right way, and always in the best interest of the pups.

You've opened a good topic of discussion. Thank you!

Latina44870 03-30-2010 12:14 PM
This is a good topic. I'm new here as well. I DID get papers with my female puppy but have never filled them out. We have no intention of breeding her and are getting her fixed. Should we do the papers? Does it matter if we do not? I thought papers were only for if you breed them but like I said, I'm new so maybe I'm not understanding some other benefit to having papers? lol.

Mardelin 03-30-2010 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3061884)
I'm not really comfortable with breeders selling a dog for more just because it has breeding rights. I can understand selling a dog for more if it's a puppy that may be suitable for showing, but I don't think you can tell if a 12-week-old puppy is breeding material, can you, er maybe YOU can!

Don't really like the idea of Q registry, do you have some links, so I can learn more?
I understand what you are saying Nancy, as a breeding dog should have all the attributes of a show dog. But, realistically it happens all the time....Some breeders just sell one said puppy on open or limited and the only difference to them is the price......No, you can't tell at 12 weeks of age if the puppy is of breeding/show quality.....at 8 weeks you are just starting to look at them for personality/temperament.....that's why those that are showing hold on to the dogs they are assessing for longer periods of time.....6 months or more...things go off....toplines go off when they are growing....high in the rear, low in the front.....funky little things, most of the time they come back...but, then there is that one, that doesn't.

I think I sent you one....but, you can do a search on the AKC website for Q registration.

Mardelin 03-30-2010 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latina44870 (Post 3062027)
This is a good topic. I'm new here as well. I DID get papers with my female puppy but have never filled them out. We have no intention of breeding her and are getting her fixed. Should we do the papers? Does it matter if we do not? I thought papers were only for if you breed them but like I said, I'm new so maybe I'm not understanding some other benefit to having papers? lol.
Reputable breeders will provide you papers on a pet puppy but, it will be on Limited Registration. Absolutely, do the papers. Pet owners should become more involved in the AKC.....

YorkieRose 03-30-2010 12:30 PM
You know you can file a complaint with AKC if a breeder has one price with papers and another without. AKC wants all puppies to be sold with papers, the breeder can decide on limited or full, but they want papers to accompany the dog..

Mardelin 03-30-2010 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorkieRose (Post 3062057)
You know you can file a complaint with AKC if a breeder has one price with papers and another without. AKC wants all puppies to be sold with papers, the breeder can decide on limited or full, but they want papers to accompany the dog..
Wow! Pat....I learned something new......thanks,

Mary

Nancy1999 03-30-2010 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latina44870 (Post 3062027)
This is a good topic. I'm new here as well. I DID get papers with my female puppy but have never filled them out. We have no intention of breeding her and are getting her fixed. Should we do the papers? Does it matter if we do not? I thought papers were only for if you breed them but like I said, I'm new so maybe I'm not understanding some other benefit to having papers? lol.
I encourage pet owners to get involved the the AKC, I think the AKC needs to recognize the needs of pet owners as well as breeders. When pet owners start registering maybe the AKC will take some of our concerns more seriously and we will have a larger voice. Otherwise the AKC will listen to those that have the largest voice and that may be commercial breeders.

YorkieRose 03-30-2010 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 3062061)
Wow! Pat....I learned something new......thanks,

Mary
There was a breed near me in Md who did this...she was inspected once and had a folder full of papers for pups she had sold without papers. Inspector told her AKC policy was to give papers with each pup...and they were not happy with breeders who did not..he said he could make things dificult for her unless she followed the regulations..it cuts into AKC revenue if you think about it....but that was at least 10 yrs ago..so who knows now.

I think I will go read what AKC says about papers now...

DvlshAngel985 03-30-2010 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 3062062)
I encourage pet owners to get involved the the AKC, I think the AKC needs to recognize the needs of pet owners as well as breeders. When pet owners start registering maybe the AKC will take some of our concerns more seriously and we will have a larger voice. Otherwise the AKC will listen to those that have the largest voice and that may be commercial breeders.
I never thought about it that way. Kaji came with papers but I never sent them in since I got him fixed in his first week home. He has pretty bad LP so my dream of having him compete in agility trials went out the window. (At least I think you can do that) I never sent them in. I had a change of heart maybe a month ago, but then found that it would be $80 to register him since I waited so long. I should have done it sooner!


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