There is a great deal of information on the internet showing vaccinations are causing cancer in our dogs...and while you might not see anything harming the puppies it could have a large impact on the length of their lives.


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Tammy, I think that people have become so immune to what goes into their pet's body because vets have for so long done shots at 6 weeks. But it's not a good excuse/reason for someone to say, "Well, this is what we have always done and I haven't seen any problems thus far.". I am confused as to why someone would not WANT to learn a better way. You know, this is a little off-topic, but when I was pregnant, my father-in-law popped off something to me about how we didn't do it that way or we didn't worry about things that you do and look, our boys turned out just fine (in reference to me no longer cleaning the litter box). Personally, I find this such a worn out excuse! LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF....why stick to the old way(s) when their is proof that there is now a better choice?

But hey....I was probably one of 'those' that you would have felt I nursed my skin kids longer than I should have (10 and 11 months old). :rolleyes: ;)

Tammy

I do give my vaccines (5 way) at home. (Purchased from revival only, on ice) I do not start them until my pups are 9 weeks old. This is the vaccine schedule I follow Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs. I follow this, not because its what "YT" tells me to , but because of what I myself have studied, classes I've taken, and research I've done.

Each parent is given a copy along in their puppy pack with all the information I have studied. And I go through this with them when they are in my home. The pups Health Records are included with everything in writing on what has been performed on the pup along with the pups next scheduled vaccine date. My vet also writes a letter to the new parent confirming.

I personally do not allow puppy visits until my puppies have had their first vaccine. Additionally, members of my own family must be showered with clean clothes on and washed hands. before coming anywhere near my puppies. Anal? So be it.

My pups are also vet checked twice before being released to their new families.

This is what works best for me.

Just thought I would share that :)

It's what must reputable breeders do.

I agree.

Just because someone has been doing it a certain way.....based on their opinion, doesn't make it correct.

Just as letting pups go between 8 - 9 weeks of age was the way it was done years ago. Things have evolved, we've become more educated. It's all about the pup, not about sales.

Just as I let my mother's call the shots on when to completely wean their babies....

You really didn't take my sanitizing hands as boosting mother's immunities. Every reputable breeder knows they keep the area the puppies are kept as clean and sanitized as possible. That includes sanitizing your hands before handling pups.

Just because you wean your pups at a young age doesn't mean mother's immunities have left their bodies the minute they no longer nurse......They do not begin leaving the pups body until approximately 9 weeks of age. Therefore, giving a pup a vaccination at 6 weeks of age, you are subjecting them to greater danger of contracting diseases.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Good Answer and nice way to put things.

I would add that every breeder SHOULD BE REPUTABLE and do the right thing !
It is just very UNFORTUNATE that reputable breeders stand from other breeders ... if EVERY BREEDER was just as careful, responsible and engaged we would not need to use the term "reputable breeder " anymore, but until then ... there will be people breeding ... and people who care enough to breed responsibly !

I read the entire thread, and i must add that not too long ago, maybe a couple years ago, Purina mailed to everyone subscribed on the proclub, the results of an extensive research about vaccine reactions and statistic numbers confirming on a lab study that overdoing vaccines is just as bad as not doing it at all. Overdoing it can cause so much damage to immune system of a tiny puppy. They do not take away the merit of having done vaccination as did for years, but after the research they were recommending a more conscious spaced out schedule.

We need to be on top of things ! And be open for change as long it is a change for the better !
XOXO

Unless we follow all pups from birth to death, we can not say we never see any problems. Many problems do not surface the first year..but in the course of the dogs life we see a decline of health.

I have had two breeders recently mention they were losing adults at 6 to 8 yrs. What was going on...I do not know, but I have been so fortunate to have a 13 to 15 yr life span for most of my Yorkies...16 and 17 on occasion.
I have lost a few at 9 to 10, but this is not the norm...

I have followed this thread because of the seriousness of the subject...and it keeps coming back to this..many vets and breeders are clueless...

Pat,

It's bad enough that breeders don't really educate themselfs prior to breeding, but, to close one's eyes just because that's the way it's been done. A good breeder is learning continously.

I've heard of some vets that still follow the old method of giving vaccines at 6 weeks of age, I've been fortunate enough not to come in contact with one.

This is so true! Probably the best thing I learned in school is how to evaluate a "source" of information. Sure lots of people have different "opinions" on how to do things, but not all opinions are of equal value.

Well you know what they say about opinions :D

I don't think anyone should base what they do on opinions, it should be done on facts, education and experience.......

Yes, but we should use facts, education and experience to form those opinions!

On the other hand sometimes we do need to take a step backwards.

As a child, we always had as dog that roamed the entire farm, came into contact with all sorts of animals and lived long healthy lives. they never had a shot, nor were they treaed for fleas or worms. And I don't recall them every having fleas or worms. And I might add, they were all fed table scraps and given milk to drink, straight from the cow.

I explain the vaccinations also and provide them with Dr Dodds schecdule. the reason I do is because they want to know why they have not had at least 2 shots by 10 weeks.

nope on the nursing was for the 2yr +:)

i see what you are saying..and i get your point of view...i dont use it as an excuse..that just how i do my vaccinations

i also use the hand sanitizer...and keep a clean area and home for my pets

i see your argument but i still see mine. i would rather start the vaccines at 6 weeks that take chances and wait until 10 or 12 weeks to start..i cant see how waiting is proactive. i would be beside my self if i wait too long and then they contracted something because i wasnt preparing that puppy

they do studies all the time and something i think about is how something they did 20 years ago is bad today..but in 20 years they might say what we did 40 years ago was better because then they see the affects of the difference it may or may not have made.

i also dont allow visits until i have done vaccinations ..i think thats a wonderful point to bring up ..

i understand the next few post where it commented not to go by opinions...im stating my opinion just like everyone, from what i have learned and experienced just as everyone else because it was they have learned and experienced. i go by what i have learned through my vets and that i feel is the safest way to go....

im not pig head and stubbon i see the links about waiting and letting them build immunties from the mother on new research but i can not fathom waiting that long to vaccinate..i would be freaking out that something would happen and my puppies would catch a virus.....i mean i think i was have a panic attack while i was waiting for the weeks to go by

Is it that easy for a puppy to catch something, if it's kept at home, away from other animals?

No, it isn't Nancy. But, you do have to take the necessary precautions. Even before they're born, mother's aren't comprimised by setting their feet on dirt, they have a confined play area outside, where they potty. My pups don't come out of my bedroom until 8 1/2 weeks of age....when they've had their first vaccination, then they go into the kitchen and that floor is cleaned 3 times a day. They don't set foot outside until their 3rd shot at 16 weeks of age.

As a matter of fact I know of two other people that vaccinated their pups at 6 weeks and lost a whole litter because they contracted Parvo from the vaccination........

Vaccines....
 

"Are the vaccines given today any different from those given 20 years ago?

Early vaccines presented a form of a pathogen that couldn’t cause disease, but stimulated the body to mount an immune response.

Laurel Gershwin, Professor of Immunology at the University of California-Davis School of Veterinary Medicine, states, “these days we have evolved a better and newer means of vaccination, which come from those same principles, but have evolved along with our knowledge of immunology.”

She says with DNA technology, scientists can now remove the genes in viruses that are responsible for the production of disease, making today’s vaccines more safe and effective.

Similarly, it’s possible to isolate and use only the parts of a virus or bacteria that induce immunity. This helps protect pets from adverse vaccine reactions".

– Dr. Andrea Looney, DVM for the “Purina® Animal Instincts” Podcast Series

Uh boy, this thread has been a real eye-opener :rolleyes:.

Here's the thing...we could argue about dog food, nutrition, collars, tail docking...all day long...all of those areas have very little research (if any), but can foster a whole lot of discussion and opinions.

As far as vaccination goes, this is *one* area where we have the privilege of good research and proof as to what is best for a dog's immune system. The fact is, other dogs' LIVES have been sacrificed in order for us and our dogs to benefit from this knowledge.

If for no other reason, my hope is that people stay up to date about vaccine standards out of respect for these dogs, whose lives were sacrificed for the sake of research.

Sorry, I had to say it. :(

"Vaccinating Small Dogs: Risks Vets Aren’t Revealing
Written by Jan on September 30, 2009 – 12:01 am

small dogAt last, a smoking gun … discovered pointing directly at Chihuahuas, Dachshunds, Maltese, Yorkies and other small dogs … in fact, pointed at all dogs receiving multiple vaccines during one clinic visit.

Many scientific studies and taskforce reports have altered my view of vaccination over the years, but none have stunned me as much as “Adverse events diagnosed within three days of vaccine administration in dogs” by Drs. Moore, Guptill, Ward, et al. This two-year study of vaccine reactions (from data gathered at 360 Banfield clinics in 2002 and 2003) concluded: “Young adult small-breed neutered dogs that received multiple vaccines per office visit were at greatest risk of a VAAE [Vaccine Associated Adverse Event] within 72 hours after vaccination.” And that’s not all the report revealed.

In the study (published in JAVMA, the Journal of American Veterinary Medical Association in October, 2005), 1.2 million dogs received almost 3.5 million vaccine doses. Reactions reported within 3 days (as designated by computer codes) included nonspecific vaccine reactions, allergic reactions, urticaria (hives), anaphylaxis (severe, whole-body allergic reaction), cardiac arrest, cardiovascular shock and sudden death. For each 10,000 dogs vaccinating, 38 adverse reactions were reported.

You’re probably thinking: just 38 reactions per 10,000 dogs? That’s not too bad. But bear in mind that this study did NOT include:
# Reactions reported more than 72 hours after vaccination (thus eliminating reactions taking longer to develop or be discovered, such as injection site cancers, autoimmune diseases, skin diseases and other major conditions).
# Reactions that occurred but were never reported by clients.
# Conditions not recognized by the vet as vaccine reactions.
# Conditions not selected for this study. (Seizures weren’t on the list, nor were countless other common reactions.)
# Conditions not recorded by the vet. The 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA) Vaccine Guidelines reports “gross under-reporting of vaccine-associated adverse events ….”
# Reactions in dogs also getting a heartworm shot, presumably because of the increased risk of reaction. (Currently,vets are warned not to give Proheart 6 with a vaccination.)

The study’s researchers (6 of 7 were vets) recommended that veterinarians should communicate the increased risk of multiple vaccines to clients before obtaining their consent to vaccinate. At this writing, a full 4 years after the study’s publication, I suspect few clients have actually been warned about the risk of multiples vaccines at one visit, or about special risks to smaller dogs. Were you ever warned?

Factors Increasing The Risk of the Vaccine Adverse Reaction

Body Weight. The reaction rate increased significantly as body weight decreased. That is, small dogs were at greatest risk for a reaction. Risk for dogs weighing 11 pounds or less was 4 times greater than the risk for dogs weighing 99+ pounds. Medium-sized dogs also had increased risk over larger dogs.

For all vaccines and for the rabies vaccine given alone, the reaction rate for dogs weighing 22.2 to 99 lbs. was approximately half the rate of dogs weighing less than 22.0 lbs. Little dogs had 32+ reactions per 10,000; medium-sized dogs, 15+; large dogs, none.

Neutering/Spaying. Neutered dogs had a 27% to 38% greater risk versus sexually intact dogs.

Age. Dogs 1.5 to 2.5 years of age had a 35% to 64% greater risk of reactions (with rates increasing up to 2 years and declining thereafter) than puppies 2 to 9 months old. The risk was least for dogs 6 years of age and older.

Number of vaccines per office visit. The risk significantly increased as the number of vaccines given at each visit increased. In little dogs (under 10 lbs.) each dose increased risks by 27%; in dogs weighing more, each dose increased risk by 12%.

Taking all dogs into consideration, each additional vaccine given at each office visit increased the rate of vaccine reaction by 24.2%. All 3 dogs in the study with recorded deaths had each received 4 or more vaccines at their last office visit.

3 or more vaccines given at once increase the risk of a vaccine reaction 50% over the risk of a single shot. Giving 5 simultaneous vaccines doubles the risk!

Breed. Among breeds with 5,000 or more dogs vaccinated during the study period, the most vaccine reactions per 10,000 dogs were found, in order, in Dachshunds, Pugs, Boston Terriers, Miniature Pinschers and Chihuahuas. Next came Maltese, Miniature Schnausers, Jack Russells, Toy Poodles and Yorkshire Terriers. Mid-size dogs (like Lhasa Apsos, Bichons and Beagles) followed. At the bottom of the list was Chow Chows, German Shepherds and Rottweilers.

Purebred Status. The vaccination reaction rate for mixed-breed dogs was in the bottom fifth of all rates. The researchers state: “safety trials that use such dogs may underestimate the reaction rates that would occur in purebred dogs.”

Why Does a Dog’s Weight Have Such a Big Impact?

The researchers report: “Vaccines, in contrast to virtually all veterinary pharmaceuticals, are prescribed on a 1-dose-fits-all basis, rather than by body weight.”

I have always been shocked that a Chihuahua puppy and an adult Great Dane are given the same dose shot: 1 mL. They get the same volume of virus or bacteria plus the same volume of adjuvants (boosting agents like aluminum), preservatives (like mercury), antibiotics, stabilizers and foreign tissue cultures (like fetal calf serum). All these ingredients are known to cause vaccine reactions. (Learn more about vaccine ingredients at the CDC.)

The study’s researchers go on to say that during a vaccine’s pre-licensing trial, manufacturers investigate the safety of excessive doses of vaccines “but only in a limited number of dogs. The results of this study suggest that trials in dogs that weigh [22 lbs.] underestimate the expected VAAE rate in smaller dogs.”

The risk of a vaccine reaction in this study population was inversely related to a dog’s weight. This weight/response relationship was also suggested by a study in which toy breeds had significantly more reactions than other dogs, although body weight was not evaluated.

How Do You Avoid Reactions to Vaccines?

The study detailed here reports the problems, but not the remedy. They only recommend that veterinarians advise clients of the risks.

Regrettably, I have been unable to find you a link to the study on-line. Your vet may have on-line access if he/she subscribes to JAVMA ( J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2005 Oct 1;227(7):1102-8). You can read a short summary or have your non-subscribing vet request the article for a small fee at Adverse events diagnosed within three days of vacc... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2005] - PubMed result or AVMA - Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association - 227(7):1102 - Abstract Note: A smaller study for cats entitled “Adverse events after vaccine administration in cats” turned up similar results to the dog study.

If your vet gives multiple shots in a visit, you should insist that he/she read this study. If your vet has already read it, he/she should explain to you why you weren’t informed of the risks to your dog of multiple shots, especially if your dog was small or medium sized.

Please read my article on Protecting Dogs From Vaccine Reactions for my recommendations for avoiding adverse reactions in all size dogs. Sign up for notification of future articles and our free dog care e-newsletter (delivered quarterly). Follow K9Author at Twitter.

This is an important study. Please bookmark this article and send it to friends."

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row...
 

I just had to "quote" a few respectful people that put into better words what some of us here are trying to explain !
It may educate the ones who need...
I do however have a feeling that whoever already know what the articles contents are will ready it completely and others who should may not take the time and effort to read them and pay attention to it all !
There are dozens of different vaccines on the market today , recombinant ones, killed virus, modified virus ... all kinds.
The article above mention specific the danger of reactions among small breeds.
Whoever is in the task of breeding toy breeds now days must be on top of things!
I do not go to a holistic vet , and to be very very honest i am not fond of them either ! But what they are saying about too much vaccines is to be paid attention.
Besides a breeder must know to be able to educate the puppy owners... i get so many questions and even afters years of placing a puppy i am contacted by the owners with questions, it actually just happened today ...
How else can you give advice?
The pet life span is going up because of research and technology ! we need to be educated about the changes and resources available to us , as the titer tests for example.
I hope the person who prefers to vaccinate her puppies at 6 weeks old can read the article and learn a little more about immunity ! Honestly it will help you understand why some other yorkie talkers are trying to explain to you that it is not the best way to vaccinate and to get the most protection from the vaccine.
It believe it is all part of the breeding experience, studying and being on top of things! I enjoy it all ! Even if it means a lot of work and reading !
I hope the articles help !
XOXO

Mary I echo your post...
I am floored to see 8 and 9 week old Yorkies pups at Petsmart...

I also follow Dr Dodds schedule but I really can understand why there is confusion for some on this topic because even the vets don't seem to be in agreement. When I brought my puppies in for vaccines at 10 weeks, I told my vet I didn't want lepto and what were his thoughts? He basically said that between him and I, he understood my concerns about Lepto and his personal experience has been that that vaccine causes the most number of bad reactions, however it's the policy of that practice that the Lepto vaccine be given. I love the particular vet I see but he is part of a larger practice with something like 10 different vets. Of course, I asked that Lepto specifically not be given but if I had not mentioned it then it would have been given.
I have to say that I am afraid of the things that are out there, particularly parvo but I am more afraid of over vaccination. I don't think people understand that all these things like de worming and vaccinations are not just harmless things. Some of these things we are putting on our dogs or giving our pups are PESTICIDES! How can they be good for anyone? If my dogs had fleas, then I guess I'd have no choice but I do whatever I can naturally to prevent things like that and only use it if I think the benefit outweighs the risk. We don't know what possible harm we could be causing by over vaccinating. It's something I really struggle with and sometimes there are no easy answers....
Anyways, here is a link to Dr. Dodds protocol (I think maybe it's been posted already but thought I would post again) I believe this is the best that's out there....
Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs

:thumbup::thumbup:

Are they referring to the 5 in 1 as being multiple or are the speaking of the 5 in 1 combined with rabies etc.???

I too have wondered fabout the logic of giving the same dose to a 1 pound puppy and a full grown great dane. Wouldn't the fact that smaller dog have more reactions indicte that they should recieve a smaller dose?

I am going to put a link to Dr. Dodds schedule on my webiste.

I recently started with a new vet..he and his wife just bought out an establish clinic near me.
He knew nothing of my background and I offered no information when I took Marzipan for her 16 week vaccines.
He is out of school perhaps 5 yrs...after all the nicities..I asked him what he thought was needed...

He looked over her record..since she had a 9, 12 vaccine he recommended DHPP no lepto, stool check, bordatella, if I boarded or went to dog parks..and he would like to see her in a month for rabies..he did not give rabies with a puppy shot...and I was perfectly welcome to wait until 6 months for rabies IF I wanted a rabies at all. It was the law, but he understood toy dog owners reluctance...and since she was on heart worm, nothing more was needed.

I will continue with this new vet...we have since talked and I have let him know Marzipan is not my first Yorkie..I do have bit of knowledge about them...I told him I was showing Marz...he is not trying to impress me, which many do with any long time show breeder.