I say put up or shut up. JMHO.

Barney Fife[/QUOTE]

This has totally gone off on the wrong track. I think that this statement is why a lot of people stay out of the showring. There are a lot of good dogs that deserve to win and I have seen some that I don't know how they did it. Can you say that just because a dog wins a title, that even in your eyes they're worthy? I bet you have seen some that you just shake your head at, be honest. Yes, they are "enhanced" to look better. What is with the ironing? They either have smooth silky hair or not, I don't think that that should be allowed if that is what a true, by the book, Yorkie should have. I love it when I see, not only Yorkies, but larger breeds, when they go into the show ring and stack all on their own, there isn't anything that is more beautiful. They do it naturally. I hope we get back on the main topic or start a new one. Do we have a "show ring" forum here?...

This has totally gone off on the wrong track. I think that this statement is why a lot of people stay out of the showring. There are a lot of good dogs that deserve to win and I have seen some that I don't know how they did it. Can you say that just because a dog wins a title, that even in your eyes they're worthy? I bet you have seen some that you just shake your head at, be honest. Yes, they are "enhanced" to look better. What is with the ironing? They either have smooth silky hair or not, I don't think that that should be allowed if that is what a true, by the book, Yorkie should have. I love it when I see, not only Yorkies, but larger breeds, when they go into the show ring and stack all on their own, there isn't anything that is more beautiful. They do it naturally. I hope we get back on the main topic or start a new one. Do we have a "show ring" forum here?...[/QUOTE]

I thank you for your post, but I am sceptical about your statement that this is why people stay out of the show ring.

You'll never get an argument out of me that there are a lot of good dogs that deserve to win and some that finish who are not deserving. I know that to be true, and I've stated it again and again in my posts.

My comment was in to reply to a woman who accused me of thinking my dogs "poop golden turds". There are some pet breeders who misrepresent their stock as show quality but can't be bothered to actually GO to a show, let alone enter their "could be a champions". They put down breeders who are actually breeding to improve and go through the rigors of putting their best out in front of everyone for them to pick over and criticize. It's sour grapes, and any excuse is good enough. They whine about politics and dirty tricks. There IS a political game, to be sure, but like any area of life and particularly sports, the cream will rise to the top. I certainly don't agree with every judge's opinion. But it doesn't take long to find out which judge's opinion you value and those you don't.

I'm greatful to pet breeders. I would've never caught Yorkie fever without a very special one. But the hair stands up on the back of my neck when I hear the sales pitches of some who claim they are breeding to the standard and you look at the pictures on their websites and you see long, low bodies (I even read one who bragged about her Yorkies' "short legs"), poor tail sets, bad color, missing teeth (yes, I've seen one with an open mouth and only four lower incisors), ears like Welsh Corgis, curly coats, straight rears, long hocks. They never take pictures with them stacked so you can try to evaluate their angulation and balance. They learn just enough to develop a sales pitch about the quality of their dogs and then they go kennel blind.

I'm sure every one of their puppies is healthy and they make wonderful companions. But, they are NOT breeding to the standard and they are NOT breeding show quality.

So, again, and this is just for those who fall into this niche, I say Put Up or Shut Up. If you can't cut the mustard in the show ring, please don't criticize those who do.

The most fun in the world is to be a "nobody" in the show ring and to come out with the points. As I say "let them set 'em up, and we'll go in and knock them down".

You're not allowed to artifically enhance your dog for the show ring. That means no color, no surgeries, etc. We showed under a judge here in Oregon who had seen our girl in Canada. The handler who took her to Canada had used a coloring shampoo on her (she didn't tell us til she came home) and of course, we didn't color her when we showed her. The judge not only knew she had seen our girl before, but knew she had been colored at the time. Anyone who's doing this stuff is just kidding themselves that it makes a difference to the judge. A good judge is looking at many things before they get to coat color. Anything else in the grooming area is fair game. We use an iron because it adds a sheen to the finished show coat.

We don't have a show ring forum here, because that is one area of the fancy that is very underrepresented here. I get attacked every time I bring up issues around the sporting end of it.

Again, thanks for the post.

Barn

Yep Barney, I do agree with you that some people shouldn't try to pass off some yorkies as good breeding stock. I have 2 great guys with very good lines behind them but there is no
way that I would ever use them just because there are "champions" in their backgrounds. As
to the show circut, I have a friend who started showing 2 years ago Bernese

Mountain Dogs. Had never done it before, this past weekend she just got her 10 month old female her reserve major, and best puppy in breed and best puppy in show! She is in her heigth of glory! Here is where she did her homework and got a great little girl who is surprising the heck out of her. So yes, I know that showing is a great way to get a handle on whether you have a quality dog or not, it's just very competitive and costly for the average person who can't go off to every show and leave their home. And to suggest a professional handler, well, that's another cost and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't send my dogs off to live with someone if I couldn't do the showing myself.

Way to go on the Berner!!!! She must be on cloud nine. Breeders need to educate themselves on the breed in general and their dogs in particular. They need to be their own worst critic instead of their own best promoter.

Barn

I got my first yorkie in the 70"s. The man I had married had family in Ireland and wales. We were sent overseas to mee the family for a honeymoon. The one family we stayed with ahd a yorkie and I fell in love. I came home and had to have one.

Well I bought one- from a show breeder in my area. Bubbers grew to be 18 pounds no coat and lousy temperment would attack when he did not get his way. Did I love him yes- did I breed hin no. He was neutered. I never ever bought or bred the dogs that I got after him to anything that had to do with this breeder or any bloodlines of Bubbers.

Why do you iron a coat- Reason # 1 you have a wavy coat. #2 you have just taken your dog out of wraps at the show and you have curls. To get that out you have to Iron at the show.

Is number one an enhancement you make the call.

Showing your dog is very political. Some judges will not put up a owner handled dog if they have a handler in the ring unless you are one of the big boys in the breed. Kennel clubs try and pick judges that will get a large draw. They make money on the number of people who enter the show. If they pick the wrong Judges the entries may go down.

Several weeks ago we showed at a small show who had a fantastic Maltese entry 5 point major in both male and female. The Judge was not the one advertised at the time of entry ( he had become ill) most of the maltese were pulled they did not show that day because they did not like the judge.

Some people do not have the funds to show dogs. It is very expensive. Entry fees are at least $23.00- $26.00 per show. Add in your gas, the upkeep on your vehicle, food, lodging, clothing for you and all the things you need for the dog and your time- you are talking a lot of money. This is if you are doing it yourself. Tripple this cost at least if using a handler. Many folks do not have $125.00- $200.00 to blow on a weekend of shows that may be close to home. There are some that still have beautiful dogs.

Picture taking- give me a stacked picture of a dog any day. If you know how to stack you can take a wonderful picture and correct a lot of faults- dog looks wonderful. Why do you think so much time is spent on training a dog to stack and stay in that pose. I like to see them when not working when they are relaxed a lot of faults are clearer. Too each his own on marketing.

Walk down the Isle- look at the shops at the dog show- 85% of the products that some of the vendors have are enhancements. Products to help the coat be whiter- darker. Conditioners to help give a silky coat texture and on and on. You are fooling yourself if you are using products like this and say that you are not enhancing your dog.

Many dogs are colored to even out the breaking or lack of breaking fill in sooty heads.

The person who has mastered the art of grooming has a big advantage. Many owner handlers can not groom thier dog the way that a groomer can.
Most top handlers with multiple breeds have a person who does nothing but get the dogs ready to show. I look at Buster- I keep him up during the week- can I groom him the way Peggy does for a show no way.

Many a owner handler does not know how to train the dog to show at his or her best advantage- we are too involved with how much we love them. While at the show you have to put on a different hat. You are now a professional- not that dogs best friend and he is not the love of your life. It has to be bussiness only.


Question to all- If your dog was shown and colored without your consent- and you found out -what would you do if he won points in the show ring? Do you smile and take those points or do you contact the registry and tell them what was done. If no points were won would you still contact them . Would you take the chance on having your dog disqualified for life?

My hat goes off to all who show themselves- It is long and hard work

You mention about enhancing coats, no matter what you use, you really can't change the coat. Either you have a true silk coat, or you don't. No amount of color, straightening, conditioners or anything else will make a cotton coated dog into a silky coat. All show people have their own grooming tricks to make their dog look prettier than the others, but in the end, you still have to have the proper coat. Different conditioners will make the coat shine more, and using a straighting iron is done because show yorkies are kept up in wraps when not being shown to protect their coats, and the wraps cause the hair to be curly. Just like putting curlers in your hair. The only perfect dog is in the description of the standard, that is what everyone strives to achieve, but no one really can. Every dog has a fault of some sort. It may be the shape of the head, or the top line, or coat texture, or color. Maybe the feet are turned in or out just a wee bit, or the nose may be too long or short. The ears may be too large, or too small, or go out too much. It is all in your interperation, and that of the judge. Some judges select professional handlers over dogs, but you learn who they are and you don't enter a show that uses them. It is a hard battle when you are a owner/handler, instead of hiring a professional handler, but when you do get points, you know that it is because you have a good dog, and not because it is a professional handler.

[QUOTE=Baron]You mention about enhancing coats, no matter what you use, you really can't change the coat. Either you have a true silk coat, or you don't. No amount of color, straightening, conditioners or anything else will make a cotton coated dog into a silky coat. All show people have their own grooming tricks to make their dog look prettier than the others, but in the end, you still have to have the proper coat. Different conditioners will make the coat shine more, and using a straighting iron is done because show yorkies are kept up in wraps when not being shown to protect their coats, and the wraps cause the hair to be curly. QUOTE]

I disagree, I know of a show breeder here in Oregon currently finishing a soft coat boy, he needs only one more major. You would never know he is a soft coat once she has him groomed for the show ring. There are many tricks available (many talented groomers can make silk out of a sows ear with the vast amount of products available). A professional handler will not arbitraily enhance a coat (dye it) unless he/she as a professional deems it necessary get the win.

Very well said.

CJ

I was intrigued by this ethical dilemma but avoided answering it right away because of my lack of experience in this area. Everything I know about showing dogs I learned from your post.

However, since you posted the question to "all" and no one has weighed in, here's my .02. (I realize your question is hypothetical. Any references to "you" are just for lack of a better word):

The person in that position would have to spill the beans, if for no other reason than the alternatives are worse.
1. The owner fires the person who did it. They seek retribution and spread rumors how the owner consented and won points by cheating.
2. The owner doesn't fire the person who did it. He or she becomes a willing participant in the deception, making him/her every bit as responsible for cheating. And if that person has done it once, they might as well do it again. Also, it gives the person who did it reason and motive to do it again, to yours or another dog that might be competition.

The downside is you don't know how officials are going to react. Maybe the owner or their dog will be disqualified for life, and that's not a just penalty for the honesty and class it takes to "come clean." But I think the owner would have to take that chance, if for no other reason than the owner and the person who cheated (and whoever they decide to tell) will know that you knew about it and did nothing.

I think the circumstances would be the same whether you won points or not. The person who did it should be exposed. However, if you can't prove it, then you shouldn't slander anyone in public. Tell the judges it happened and you don't know how and take the heat yourself. And fire the hell out of the person you think did it.

Not being in that position, I don't know that's how I'd react. But I like to think so.

You can make a coat look like a silk coat, but it still does not feel like a silk coat, and a good judge knows the difference. Some judges will put up soft coated dogs because they like them, not because they are fooled into thinking they are silk coats. I have seen coats that look like really nice coats, but once you get hands on you can tell the difference.



I disagree, I know of a show breeder here in Oregon currently finishing a soft coat boy, he needs only one more major. You would never know he is a soft coat once she has him groomed for the show ring. There are many tricks available (many talented groomers can make silk out of a sows ear with the vast amount of products available). A professional handler will not arbitraily enhance a coat (dye it) unless he/she as a professional deems it necessary get the win.[/QUOTE]

By the way, I have soft coated dogs, silk dogs, and those inbetween, and I also can make them look great, but the cotton ones still do not feel like the silk coats. There are a lot of judges that put up the cotton type coats, because the dog has other qualities that are super. Like I said, there is no perfect yorkie. The judge selects what he feels comes closest to the standard in his mind that day. Tomorrow may be a different interperation by the same judge.

But please don't assume that just because a yorkie is not in the show ring that they aren't quality dogs. Very true that it is difficult to find a quality, healthy yorkie but it is possible.[/QUOTE]


I agree whole-heartedly.

:thumbup: :thumbup:
WOW..... that is cheaper than what it costs for my son to be on a travel baseball team!!! I was thinking it would cost more than that -- guess we learn something new everyday! FYI - I am not saying it is "CHEAP" -- let me clarify -- I am simply saying that since I am not in the "show" circle, (and still have quality, healthy dogs, by the way) I did not have any idea of the costs involved. My son's travel baseball team is about to break us!!!! LOL

I, too, have much respect for people that handle and show dogs.

:thumbup:

Hmmmmmmm, the entry fees are the cheap part. For a 2 day week-end at a show it will typically cost us about 350 to 400 to show 2 dogs. That is fuel, food, lodging, grooming supplies, entry fees, for each dog for each day. Then if we browse the vendors and want to buy something we can drop another 100 or more. We limit our selves to only one or two weekends a month because we show 2 or 3 dogs at each show. Also have toll fees when you travel by the toll roads.

I have seen plenty of beautiful dogs out there that are not being shown. Just because you may not choose to show your dog, does not mean he/she is not a wonderful specimen. The only thing I would want to see is that anyone breeding does try to breed to the standard.

:yelrotflm :yelrotflm I understand, Baron. I just meant that for some reason I expected the cost to be well in the thousands of dollars. Even $400-$500 is quite a bit, so please don't think I was scoffing at the cost.
My son's ballgames cost about $300 a weekend, and he plays 2-3 weekends a month. That is if we are not playing close to a mall!! hahaha
I understand (now more than before) the cost and I am sure the time is unreal -- that is why I respect all that show dogs.
When I bought my two, I wanted to make sure they were healthy and within the standards -- but I wasn't looking for a show dog. I wanted a pet/companion - and these 2 are spoiled rotten. I don't think they even know they are "d-o-g-s"... <<<shhhhh, let's not tell them>>> :yelrotflm