MARS Test Accuracy????

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Slowly this time....the dog in question was not a biewer. However if you like I can post the test results of biewers which i know who were tested.

please can you?? i would really like to see some. i've searched the internet and its impossible to find more then 1 or 2 results on ANY dog.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I know the test results from some owners' who've had their biewers tested
and here's a list of the breeds found -

Yorkie, Borzoi, Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Manchester Terrier, Chihuahua, Japanese Chin, Maltese, English Cocker, Spaniel Chinese Crested, Basset Hound, Springer Spaniel, Pekingese, Shih Tzu....

Originally Posted by kalina82

please can you?? i would really like to see some. i've searched the internet and its impossible to find more then 1 or 2 results on ANY dog.

I posted it earlier.... in each of the results...the dogs tested yorkie plus two of the other breeds listed above. As yet a genetic marker for biewers is not in the within the breeds presently covered. Besides not being valid to determine "purebreeds"....Mars has also stated the test wouldn't be accurate for European dogs either.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

I posted it earlier.... in each of the results...the dogs tested yorkie plus two of the other breeds listed above. As yet a genetic marker for biewers is not in the within the breeds presently covered. Besides not being valid to determine "purebreeds"....Mars has also stated the test wouldn't be accurate for European dogs either.

oh i was hoping you might actually have the link to the copy of the actual results, like this one for a mixed breed http://www.dogtipper.com/photos-gene...-breeds600.jpg i've yet to actually see those.

seems nobody wants to share their actual results. must be hiding something how are we to believe the biewer is made up of a few different breeds if the results aren't shared? some can't possibly believe that typed word will be taken as truth over the internet...

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by scrapindee

"We are aware that on occasion, dog owners have attempted to use the test to prove the "purity" of a dog from a given breed. This is not a purpose for which the test was designed and we do not advocate its use for this purpose. We expect testing of purebred dogs with Wisdom Panel MX to cause inaccuracies in the results of the analysis because our statistical algorithm was designed for the purpose of finding multiple breeds in a dog’s ancestry."

There in her, Dr.Fretwell, own words, not to be used to prove lineage of new breed.


(and btw Marketing 101 and Statistics 101 are not the same classes.)

[csagan001]

Originally Posted by csagan001

Kim, There I did it. I sent an e-mail to him via the e-mail address he included in his post. Here is a copy of that e-mail:

Dr. Fretwell,

The entire conversation on Yorkie Talk centers around the topic of statistical verification.

Can you please provide to me the following information?
1. What are your Type I error rates?
2. What are your Type II error rates?
3. What are your 90% and your 95% confidence intervals.

If you need to break the numbers down by breed, that would be ok. Do not be afraid to be specific. I teach statistics on the university level, so I can handle the numbers!

Thank you (in advance)
csagan001 (on Yorkie Talk).

I hope he responds either here or to my e-mail address. If he does, and actually provides data, perhaps we can put this matter to rest. However, if he does not respond, or does not provide the data, then his actions indict the validity of the test.

BTW -- I am not whoever the previous, rather nasty, poster said I was, "Dan"--I am not "Dan" I am named after my father. My father's name was "Clark". The only person that my mother knew who was named "Dan" was Father Daniel O'Donahue, a priest from the nearby Catholic Church.

Still no info from Mars Vet Corp. Day 4 and counting.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by kalina82

oh i was hoping you might actually have the link to the copy of the actual results, like this one for a mixed breed http://www.dogtipper.com/photos-gene...-breeds600.jpg i've yet to actually see those.

seems nobody wants to share their actual results. must be hiding something how are we to believe the biewer is made up of a few different breeds if the results aren't shared? some can't possibly believe that typed word will be taken as truth over the internet...

It isn't posted anywhere on line. The breed results I gave were told to me by women who had their dogs personally tested. BTCA's test results were sent to their club president, not the owners of the dogs. None of them have been given the original information from mars.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

It isn't posted anywhere on line. The breed results I gave were told to me by women who had their dogs personally tested. BTCA's test results were sent to their club president, not the owners of the dogs. None of them have been given the original information from mars.

Interesting...

[csagan001]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

... BTCA's test results were sent to their club president, not the owners of the dogs. None of them have been given the original information from mars.

So, how can the individual owners judge the veracity of the test results? I mean say that Mars said the little Biewer had DNA from a Great Dane, or other large dog, Mastiff, or maybe a Wolfhound, ....the Biewer doesn't look like it could have any of that kind of background--especially within three generations. So, without the information, how can the individual owners judge the accuracy of the data for themselves? And failing that, how could AKC, or UKC or anyone accept the results as meaningful?

I am asking here, not pointing fingers. I want to try to understand this better.

[chattiesmom]

If I understand correctly, the Mars test cannot determine whether or not a dog is a "purebred" dog, i.e. Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc. If that is true then how can the test determine that a dog is part Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc?

If you can't identify the whole, how can you identify parts of the whole?

[csagan001]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

If I understand correctly, the Mars test cannot determine whether or not a dog is a "purebred" dog, i.e. Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc. If that is true then how can the test determine that a dog is part Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc?

If you can't identify the whole, how can you identify parts of the whole?

That's a very interesting question--and the exact one that caused me to ask for statistics on their false positive and false negative (type I and type II) error rates.

The analogy I use is: If I don't know what either a pickup truck or a sports car looks like, how can I tell if someone put them together like someone tried to do in this photo:
http://www.clicksaab.com/images/1002186_1.jpg I gotta know what one is, AND what the other is, before I can discern what the parts of the car in the silly photo are.

Same with dogs, I think.

[IRMaxine]

I have a question!! If the Mars test confirms that the Biewer breed stands alone as one breed from the Yorkshire Terrier-- a breed of it own-- why do all the test results come back as--- 50% Yorkie -12.5% Golden Retriever-12.5% Borzoi- 12.5% - 12.5% Doodlebug- ???? Why don't they say 50% Biewer etc- etc- etc-???? Or 75% Biewer with a trace of etc etc ????

OR Better yet as say 50% Biewer with 12.5% Yorkie and 12.5% poodle etc-???

[Nancy1999]

Dogs are said to have one of the richest genetic code among mammals. That's why we can make so many variations among the same species. We've been hearing so much about DNA, but I think lots of people are confused by how little we still know in this field. Scientists are still unsure of some of the chromosomes and dogs have almost twice the number as humans. To date, only the first 21 dog chromosomes have been numbered, out a total of 38 pairs.

The most tantalizing aspect of dog genetics is the tremendous variability among the breeds. As most people have marveled during their lives, how can a little Jack Russell terrier and a lumbering Great Dane possibly share the same DNA? Or, how can an obsessive-compulsive border collie and a happy-go-lucky Bernese Mountain Dog possibly have almost the exact same genetic code? And yet, scientists estimate that virtually all domesticated breeds are 99.9% similar on the DNA level. Sit, DNA, Sit: Cancer Genetics Going to the Dogs -- Kuska 91 (3): 204 -- JNCI Journal of the National Cancer Institute

So dogs can now share the same DNA code and be a different breed, however, until we understand the chromosomes and what they do, I don't believe we well be able to be able to offer proof that the Biewer is indeed different from the Yorkie, and I hope that the AKC will find another way to accept this as a breed as its own. I mean if the Jack Russell Terrier were trying to enter the AKC through DNA analysis, they would refuse it by saying it's a Great Dane. However, just though looks alone, people understand that this is indeed a different breed. I believe the same thing to be true of Biewers and people do believe that they look and act like different breed. I think the clubs that are pushing DNA analysis to prove the Biewer is a different breed or even a mixed breed are barking up the wrong tree.

[IRMaxine]

bingo!!!

[csagan001]

Originally Posted by csagan001

Still no info from Mars Vet Corp. Day 4 and counting.

Day 5 and counting....

[csagan001]

Originally Posted by csagan001

Still no info from Mars Vet Corp. Day 4 and counting.

Day 5 and counting....

Day 6 and counting....