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Those who can, do and those who can't teach. |
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Does that mean you can't answer the question either? |
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....become politicians. |
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......but spin doctors, are not real doctors--even if they claim the title. |
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The fact that YOU can read this thread YOU owe to a teacher!!!! |
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.... Day 7 and counting.... |
Hey, have any of you guys noticed that Biewer Terrier is not even listed as one of their covered breeds? They can't identify a breed in a mutt that is not part of their test. I guess they have 157 breeds http://wisdompanel.com/breed_charact...isdom%20MX.pdf Lesson learned. Don't bash something until you have all of the facts. (Not that you were BugZapper, but some on here have!) Csagan001, you are one angry dude. |
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"...at this time, we are not able to send you statistical data ...we have an obligation not to prejudice an ongoing study." You decide. Then please post what you think of this. I for one, remain of the opinion, that the MARS test is marketed with less than candor. |
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Slippery slope my friend. No full disclosure? |
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and that is a fact |
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csagan, where is the rest of the message? You are asking for full disclosures yet you are doing one up on Mars. You are a statistics guy, fine. The problem is that you are sorely uninformed as to the workings of scientific research. Data and facts are not released to the general public until the work is published. This is done in order to protect any on going research. I agree that you are one angry guy. I also think, IMO, that it is beyond arrogance and very unprofessional to post degrading remarks about researchers without knowing the work. I too like teachers, we need them, we all have teachers that are near and dear to our hearts, but not all of them are above board or deserve to be in the classroom. |
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(My comments regarding the letter I received from MARS are in italicized blue. Dear Mr. Sagan, Dr. Fretwell is happy to discuss your questions, but at this time, we are not able to send you statistical data without compromising the successful submission of this information for an upcoming peer reviewed scientific journal. [NOTE: As an academic researcher, I can honestly say that this claim is about as far from the truth as one can get. There is NO peer reviewed scientific journal which limits the free flow of information and data. This is the same arguement as that was used by a South Korean scientist who falsly claimed that he cloned a human being (remember him?) ] As an organization that is firmly grounded in our scientific discoveries and statistical data analysis, we have an obligation not to prejudice an ongoing study or the upcoming review by world-renowned thought leaders in genetics, mathematics, statistics and veterinary medicine. [That is the truth for any field of science. Yet witholding information just goes against the scientific tradition and everything taught to prospective Ph.D. candidates via their courses on design of experiements and ethical research.] The data you are looking for will likely be published within the next few months and available for your review. [NOTE: There is no promise here. How anyone can conduct "science" without data, and without willingly sharing that data, is anathema to the entire search for an understanding of how our world works.] In the meantime, we'd be happy to connect you with Dr. Fretwell over the phone. [As I said repeatedly, I do not want a phone conversation. I want to see some data. Hard numbers regarding the error rates of Dr. Fretwell's research. The lack of data does nothing but indict the claims he is making.] Regards, Mars Veterinary As an aside, in the original posting from MARS the company used some very confusing statistics. If you are able to dig any real information of those confusing numbers, you will discern that: 1. MARS stated that their positive rate was 90%. (About the study paragraph 2, ....TP/(TP + false positvie calls) was 90%. 2. MARS stated that their negative rate was 3% (About the study, paragraph 2, ...S(TP/TP+false negative calls) was 97%. 3. As a result their overall accuracy rate is NOT 90% as they blithly claim. Their overall accuracy cannot be higher than 87.3%. As the statistics quoted leave out tests that provide both false positive and false negative results, at the same time, it is absolutely impossible for the accuracy rate to be 87.3% or higher. (if you doubt this calculation, start with 100,000 cases. 90% accuracy (10% false positive) times 100,000 leaves 90000 cases. 900000 cases with a 97% accuracy (3% false negative) leaves 87,300 potentially accurate cases. As a result, the results MARS is providing is worse than the data they've published. Unfortunately, I had wanted MARS to admit this themselves--as doing so would bolster their credibility. They refused to provide data. They did not refuse to provide data on their experimentation, nor on their process. They did something worse--they refused to provide data on the RESULTS of their experimentation. So, there ya go! You got the whole e-mail and my entire response to it. I am saddened that a group of scientists refuse to participate in the academy from which they earned their degrees. |
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Cindy, that is exactly the question I've always had, yet we can never get an answer when it is asked :confused: |
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I ntried. I honestly did. I failed. I am sorry. |
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Here are a couple of pdf downloads that directly address this topic: 1. Misleading science claims: http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/...sciencebit.pdf 2. How to tell if the "science" you're hearing about is bogus: http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/...eviewGuide.pdf These are published by a non-profit charitable trust locaked in England. You can read about them here: Sense About Science |
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After reading all the information I have it sounds like a scam to me. $$ hungry "scientists" making a claim but unable and/or unwilling to provide scientific evidence to back up their claims. I am so stuck on the fact that if they cannot identify single breeds of dogs with any degree of accuracy, then how can they identify several breeds in a specific dog? Csagan001, I thank you for trying to help solve this Mars puzzle. PS -- I love Santa Fe -- fantastic Green Chili Stew!!!! |
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I was not lambasting the entire teaching community. I love teachers, I taught for years myself. The statement was made in direct reference to a particular university teacher. Just exactly what are his credentials that everyone is suppose to be in awe of? What is the purpose of this post? I have to wonder why this attack on Mars has become such an obsession for this person? Does anyone really think this is beneficial? Are Yorkie people going to refrain from using the Mars testing now? Of course not, they had no use for it to begin with. As SillyYorkie pointed out, the Biewer is not a breed that can be tested for, therefore would be a nice fit for the intended purposes of the Wisdom panel. I think a lot of people are demanding results to an ongoing research project that they are not entitled to. |
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...and the only reason that I started this thread is because of two issues: 1) I've been using the Mars Wisdom Panel statistics as part of a mid-term exam in the advanced stat analysis class that I teach and wanted other people's responses, and 2) it came to my attention--via one of my students--that a dog club was using the Wisdom Panel as proof that their dogs constitute a new breed. By seeing the lack of scientific validity of their claims, perhaps they could develop a better program. Additionally, this thread is not about my credibility--I honestly could not care less what your opinion of me is--I only want you to learn to think for yourself. Attacking the prosecutor worked in getting OJ off for murder, but doing so shows a complete lack of intellictual skill, or perhaps, evidence. So, Drafting, please stop trying to side track the simple intent of this thread. Your attempts to do so just make you look bad. |
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I am totally confused as to why anyone would want to use this test in the first place. If the Mars test doesn't have the ability to single out "genetic markers" for a specific breed how could the test possibly determine these same "genetic markers" in a mixed breed. I would use the Mars if I had a mixed breed dog and wanted to determine what breeds were part of his/her genetic makeup? |
Hi Clark, I understand that you don't agree with the Mars testing for bettering a breeding program and I understand why now. I hear that you think co-owning dogs with as many people as possible is a better way to run your breeding program and is much more profitable. Can you explain how this works please? Everyone is always looking for ways to improve. Thank you. Judy |
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I think it would be nice to hear Dan explain their views on co-owning and how corporate America runs business. He is the business expert and we may be able to learn something. Have you talked to them and heard their views? |
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I would assume they would be similar to the views of your club members or club president. Kathy T co-owned dogs and also that the club president has "given" a female to someone who hasn't even bred before...but has agreed to split 2 litters? What value is the testing being done that allows a dog named Blessing who has suffered repeated seizures but as yet is deemed worthy of selling to a "small breeding home" because the breeder who owns her presently isn't able to afford her veterinary care? |
I don't belong to any club. I ask one person their views on breeding, not you. I'm trying to get a professional business mans views and you act like they have committed a crime of sorts. Is there something wrong with their breeding practices? I already know the views of your club on breeding. I find it typical that you always seem to jump in and start attacking anyone that you think belongs to the BTCA. I have to admit that out of all the people that I have talked to in the Biewer world, the BTCA members are the most sincere and nicest group of people yet. They have certainly been able to back up everything they say and being the only club that has the backing of Mrs. Biewer, speaks volumes in itself. |
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