:thumbup:

It would seem to me to be a very complex topic, partly for the reasons that WoogieMan stated. Also, I would imagine that every breed would have to have a different test, with different accuracy rates? I don't think there's a sign anywhere in dog DNA that says "Hi! I am a _________". So presumably the determinants would be different for different breeds, and have different certainty levels. DNA-wise, what differentiates a Golden Retriever from a Dachshund? We can check out the phenotypes, but where are the genotypes?

To add some completely unscientific experience of my own, I saw an eppy of "Flipping Out" where someone had five dogs tested. The results were clearly ridiculous - the chihuahua came back with Husky and Great Dane markers, that kind of thing.

I do think this test matters, because I know at least one person on this board was unsure of her dog's heritage, and got a MARS test done, which indicated it was not a purebred yorkie. She considered suing the breeder over it. So I do think it's important that people know whether they can trust this test.

Good idea. Dummy-me! Why didn't I think of that???? (don't answer that (LOL)).;)

Kim, There I did it. I sent an e-mail to him via the e-mail address he included in his post. Here is a copy of that e-mail:
\

Dr. Fretwell,

The entire conversation on Yorkie Talk centers around the topic of statistical verification.

Can you please provide to me the following information?
1. What are your Type I error rates?
2. What are your Type II error rates?
3. What are your 90% and your 95% confidence intervals.

If you need to break the numbers down by breed, that would be ok. Do not be afraid to be specific. I teach statistics on the university level, so I can handle the numbers!

Thank you (in advance)
csagan001 (on Yorkie Talk).

I hope he responds either here or to my e-mail address. If he does, and actually provides data, perhaps we can put this matter to rest. However, if he does not respond, or does not provide the data, then his actions indict the validity of the test.

BTW -- I am not whoever the previous, rather nasty, poster said I was, "Dan"--I am not "Dan" I am named after my father. My father's name was "Clark". The only person that my mother knew who was named "Dan" was Father Daniel O'Donahue, a priest from the nearby Catholic Church.

I am a newbie to the yorkie world- Trying to read up on some of these topics-- I find this Mars test fascinating!!! I have a question- Has any of the dogs that have been tested show they have Biewer in their bloodlines? Has a mixed breed,mutt shown they have any Biewer in them if the Biewer have been identified as a breed? Just curious

For thse people who don't understand plain English: Read the RED BOLDED section above...The dog's NOT a Biewer--nor is it a Pomeranian--it's a big shaggy dog with a weird tail. I named him T-REX. I still think its a Dalmation/Aussie mix.

Clark, Can we see the test results you have showing your dog is 75% dalmation?

He has stated repeatedly the dog with these test results was not a biewer.

I would be more than willing to share it, but when I cleaned my office about a month ago, those papers, along with lots more, met their fate in the shredder.

Alternatively-- I've read are other reports of this same phonomon (spelling) on the internet...so spending some time doing Google searches may be fruitful for you.

AND this thread is not about me or my credibility--it is about the data needed to support Mars Vet claim. No data--no credibility....

note for those of you who know statistics:
The requested and necessary data can be partially consructed from Dr. Fretwell's post above--and the answer as to the DNA test becomes WORSE than I estimated in my original post. But it is far better if Mars provides the supporting data--it increases the credibility of the statistical calculations.

[QUOTE=csagan001;2768169]I would be more than willing to share it, but when I cleaned my office about a month ago, those papers, along with lots more, met their fate in the shredder.



Hmmm, how convenient.

[quote=sierrapups;2768333]

Quote:

Originally Posted by csagan001 (Post 2768169) I would be more than willing to share it, but when I cleaned my office about a month ago, those papers, along with lots more, met their fate in the shredder.

It really isn't "convienant." If I had planned on having this electronic discussion, I would have saved it. I will contact Mars to see if I can get replacements--but based on this discussion, I'll bet they won't issue a second set.

Never-the-less, NOTHING prevents you from doing research on the internet. --that is, unless your belief in a cult prevents you from logical and critical thinking.

[quote=csagan001;2768352]A cult????? :confused: :eek:

[quote=Ladymom;2768376]
My defination of a cult is:

There can be (IMO) no other explanation except a cult when one blindly follows a leader who has been caught in lies, regularly talks trash about his/her own followers, fights with nearly everyone who questions him/her, and pursues unverifiable psuedo-science to achieve his/her personal goals--and then blithly states "I believe in him/her" and then gets angry and emotional with people about business, dogs, and issues that he/she feels the leader has announced--then pursues people like a trained dog when those people choose to act differently.

Of couse, this statement is based on opinion and personal conclusions only. I am NOT calling anyone a liar, or a crook, NOR rmaking allegations about the actions of any person, group, cult, or club.

Obviously you disagree with MARS. So why not just not use their service and move on? Why argue it here?

Lets wait to see if they provide any real data...

[quote=sierrapups;2768333]

Quote:

Originally Posted by csagan001 (Post 2768169) I would be more than willing to share it, but when I cleaned my office about a month ago, those papers, along with lots more, met their fate in the shredder.

Slowly this time....the dog in question was not a biewer. However if you like I can post the test results of biewers which i know who were tested.

please can you?? i would really like to see some. i've searched the internet and its impossible to find more then 1 or 2 results on ANY dog.

I posted it earlier.... in each of the results...the dogs tested yorkie plus two of the other breeds listed above. As yet a genetic marker for biewers is not in the within the breeds presently covered. Besides not being valid to determine "purebreeds"....Mars has also stated the test wouldn't be accurate for European dogs either.

oh i was hoping you might actually have the link to the copy of the actual results, like this one for a mixed breed http://www.dogtipper.com/photos-gene...-breeds600.jpg i've yet to actually see those.

seems nobody wants to share their actual results. must be hiding something :rolleyes: how are we to believe the biewer is made up of a few different breeds if the results aren't shared? some can't possibly believe that typed word will be taken as truth over the internet...

:thumbup:

Still no info from Mars Vet Corp. Day 4 and counting.

It isn't posted anywhere on line. The breed results I gave were told to me by women who had their dogs personally tested. BTCA's test results were sent to their club president, not the owners of the dogs. None of them have been given the original information from mars.

Interesting...

So, how can the individual owners judge the veracity of the test results? I mean say that Mars said the little Biewer had DNA from a Great Dane, or other large dog, Mastiff, or maybe a Wolfhound, ....the Biewer doesn't look like it could have any of that kind of background--especially within three generations. So, without the information, how can the individual owners judge the accuracy of the data for themselves? And failing that, how could AKC, or UKC or anyone accept the results as meaningful?

I am asking here, not pointing fingers. I want to try to understand this better.

If I understand correctly, the Mars test cannot determine whether or not a dog is a "purebred" dog, i.e. Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc. If that is true then how can the test determine that a dog is part Yorkie, German Shepherd, Poodle, Boxer, etc?

If you can't identify the whole, how can you identify parts of the whole?

That's a very interesting question--and the exact one that caused me to ask for statistics on their false positive and false negative (type I and type II) error rates.

The analogy I use is: If I don't know what either a pickup truck or a sports car looks like, how can I tell if someone put them together like someone tried to do in this photo:
http://www.clicksaab.com/images/1002186_1.jpg I gotta know what one is, AND what the other is, before I can discern what the parts of the car in the silly photo are.

Same with dogs, I think.

I have a question!! If the Mars test confirms that the Biewer breed stands alone as one breed from the Yorkshire Terrier-- a breed of it own-- why do all the test results come back as--- 50% Yorkie -12.5% Golden Retriever-12.5% Borzoi- 12.5% - 12.5% Doodlebug- ???? Why don't they say 50% Biewer etc- etc- etc-???? Or 75% Biewer with a trace of etc etc ????

OR Better yet as say 50% Biewer with 12.5% Yorkie and 12.5% poodle etc-???

Dogs are said to have one of the richest genetic code among mammals. That's why we can make so many variations among the same species. We've been hearing so much about DNA, but I think lots of people are confused by how little we still know in this field. Scientists are still unsure of some of the chromosomes and dogs have almost twice the number as humans. To date, only the first 21 dog chromosomes have been numbered, out a total of 38 pairs.
So dogs can now share the same DNA code and be a different breed, however, until we understand the chromosomes and what they do, I don't believe we well be able to be able to offer proof that the Biewer is indeed different from the Yorkie, and I hope that the AKC will find another way to accept this as a breed as its own. I mean if the Jack Russell Terrier were trying to enter the AKC through DNA analysis, they would refuse it by saying it's a Great Dane. However, just though looks alone, people understand that this is indeed a different breed. I believe the same thing to be true of Biewers and people do believe that they look and act like different breed. I think the clubs that are pushing DNA analysis to prove the Biewer is a different breed or even a mixed breed are barking up the wrong tree.

Day 5 and counting....

Day 6 and counting....