I Have to Say Something
 

I would just like to say something, generally speaking, not directed at anyone individually. I read a thread today that really made me think and helped me put alot of my thoughts into words:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=122236

The thread in itself is a prime example of why people come here for help and don't get it, why people ask questions and don't get answers.

I have not been on in a few weeks...I've been dealing with some major speedbumps in life and have not had the chance to log on. Now that things are settling down and I have the chance to think about something else for a minute, I read all this and it just makes me want to cut my PC off.

Honestly, the disregard for these dogs and the attitudes directed at those who DO try to help is enough to turn anyone off of YT and breeding altogether. :cry:

More and more frequently, new members/breeders sign up and ask questions. People who clearly have limited (if any) knowledge regarding Yorkies as a breed and the breeding process altogether and people who openly have intention$, goal$ and motivation$, and practice$ generally frowned upon by the Yorkie community and those committed to it.:thumbdown

They come onto YT as newbies, learning as we all once did and ask basic questions--then begins the bickering! :rolleyes:

Many of the questions are things that should be researced well in advance of breeding. Breeding is not something that should be picked up as you go along!

Nevertheless, those experienced and with many years of knowledge--either those who can stomach the stress or those who have not given up--answer the questions giving honestly and give good advice. Sometimes the answers are not the ones you want to hear and sometimes they come accross as harsh--all in an attempt to try to get others to realize the seriousness of breeding and how dangerous it can be if done irresponsibly! This results in many new members either genuinely feeling attacked or crying victim to gain support and distract attention from their newly established, questionable breeding practices--bottom line, the dogs and their well being sadly take a backseat to the new, 'more important' issue--who is being 'rude' and who got their feelings hurt. The advice and answers that were given are forgotten, ignored and not followed or even considered by those who claim to be here because they so desperately need help or want to learn?! Something there just doesn't add up. (Or maybe it is just as it seems.)

Then come the comments such as, "They are just going to do it anyway" and "May as well try to help out" Well, I'm sorry, but I for one refuse to 'help out' anyone who breeds irresponsibly. Furthermore, I know there are many others who feel the same way and who have 'given up' trying to help others as it only results in them being criticized for being truthful, God forbid.

So my point is, THIS is why so many of the long time, well respected breeders that are (or were) members here don't even log onto YT anymore and why those who do don't bother to answer questions or help anymore. I can think of several breeders who have been at this a long time, who have shown and had success doing it over the years, who I have learned alot from and who could offer information and share their experiences, greatly benefitting us all--several members who fit this mold but who don't come to YT anymore or bother to post at all.

It's really unfortunate. I can't speak for everyone, but I really miss some of the long time breeders that used to post frequently--I learned alot from them and enjoyed reading what they had to say. Now when I come to the breeder section, it's not filled with anything helpful at all.

I don't know the solution to the problem. Heck, I don't even know if there is a solution! And maybe it's because I've recently had to deal with something that made me reconsider what really takes priority in my life and has made me rethink things I thought I had my mind made up about a long time ago. But for whatever reason, this bickering among people who all have (or claim to have) the same concerns (their dogs!) in mind seems completely ridiculous and petty and completely non-productive. Like I said, I can't fix it, but I can choose not to involve myself in it and rather focus my attention on other things, both on and off YT, relating and not relating to dogs.

If you come on here and ask a question, then listen to the advice given and understand that some answers will be passionate and not what you hoped for, but maybe what you truly need to hear. If you're answering a question, let it go and don't stress over those who refuse to see reason. And regardless of who you are, let your dogs, not some point you are trying to prove, be your main concern.

Anyways....that's all I got.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :bravo: :clapsmile

Well said Misty!!

People soon forget that this forum is here for THE DOGS, and all too quickly make it about themselves...:rolleyes:

I couldn't agree more!

I don't consider myself an experienced breeder, I'm still learning every single day, but I know how to take advice, and that's why I am where I am today. People always ask me how I could've started a breeding program at my age. Well, it was because I listened and learned...and I took all the information in that my mentor, and others who knew what they were doing, had to give me. And I worked, I worked HARD! It's just very insulting when somebody comes on here and says, "hey I just bred my two yorkies...what do I do?"

Even I got completely disgusted the last few weeks, and I have started to type a reply and then deleted it several times.

It's just sad...

I agree! I have seen many times where a breeder was attacked for posting a post that wasnt even rude just blunt. If I were a breeder I wouldnt want to answer questions around here.

I just went to link and read that post with questions. Is that even a real post? :eek: You have had your dog for 3 yrs, supposed testing done, and she asks questions like that? you kidding?? :mad: A little late in the game to ask now ! What did she do about the other heats the dog went through and keeping them apart? I think this sound like a kid who is trying to stir things up. If it is a real post, it's very upsetting that she would wait years planning to breed this whole time, and not have the basic knowledge of how dogs breed and when they are fertile, and how to keep them apart !

It wasn't really any one post or even one thread in particular--just the general feelings being expressed of being new and treated unkindly or ignored altogether...
Thus why I started a new topic...hoping to leave comments regarding a specific situation in their own respective threads and not continue with those detailed conversations...:)

I guess when a new person comes here asking questions, they have probably read this first, and figure they will be treated respectfully and not have to come here on the defense.
The thread you posted, the poster that I commented about was shouting at the original poster. Unless exclaimation points have some how changed meaning since I have been in elementary school. That is not respectful or even just "blunt" for that matter. Bluntness is often rude. YOU may not think so, but when you dont even KNOW a person, and you are shouting at them, that goes beyond blunt even.
This is obviously a very competitive forum. When someone comes here for advice it often turns into a debate, and thats unfortunate. What is SO hard about answering someone politely? Do you think you have the RIGHT to shout and assume things about someone you dont even know? Or be "blunt" with them, when you dont even know what their intentions are?
You want to judge someone else on here that originally wanted to make money off of her dogs. She has obviously heeded a lot of advice, brought her dogs in, and is continuing to ask questions even through the ridicule. Why would someone do that? Because they DONT care about their dogs? I dont think so.
As the quoted post says, if you dont like the thread or the question, dont reply. Its really that easy.
If I posted every little "blunt" comment that crossed my mind in this place, I would have been banned my first 5 minutes here.
Tell me again how having a "holier than thou" attitude about dog breeding is helping the breed please?

I don't believe that Misty was the one shouting, correct me if I'm wrong. Again, as she stated above, she is making a general statement, which I and plenty of others happen to agree with.

I was talking about the thread that she has posted about. I had commented in that thread, and I believe thats what she is referring to. The post I had replied to, the person was shouting. I know she wasnt in this thread. She doesnt want to bring up conversation from another thread, but yet she posted the link to the thread? I guess thats confusing.

A lot of people dont know the things about dog breeding that some might see as "obvious" things. If someone comes here asking a question, its because they DONT know, and they apparently want to learn. If someone comes here and says "I have dogs, they have bred, now what do I do?" APPARENTLY, they didnt KNOW to do their homework first. People cannot be faulted for ignorance or just never knowing. I personally grew up in the country, on a farm, and the neighbors dog always got one of our dogs or cats pregnant or vice versa. Now back then, and out in the middle of nowhere, no one got their dogs fixed, the dogs ran freely, and if your dog got pregnant (GASP!) usually friends and neighbors would take a puppy. THATS JUST HOW IT WAS. So would a person that perhaps has a backround like that DESERVE to get hollared at or made to feel stupid because thats all that they know?? Would you yell at a 5 year old or make them feel stupid because they dont know algebra and you happen to be an algebra major?
At church, we dont lock the doors to people that might alcoholics or be involved in some sort of habitual sin. When they walk in we dont say "WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT? ARE YOU STUPID?" People learn from people gently correcting them in love. Thats just human nature.

I wasn't going to post anymore about this...But it is COMMON SENSE that you don't just mess around with lives. You don't just take two dogs (small dogs ESPECIALLY), breed them, and then expect that all the knowledge breeders on here have should just be handed to them. This is NOT just algebra or being invited to church, these are the LIVES OF DOGS!! EVERYONE has at least SOME knowledge that if you put a male and female unaltered together...that you may just end up with some puppies. And don't tell me that these people don't know what they're doing by breeding these dogs. If they DIDN'T want this to happen then they would have spayed or neutered the dogs in the first place. And if they can't afford the spay or neuter, there are clinics, and if they can't afford that, they probably can't afford to care for a Yorkie anyways. IF they care about their dogs, they would do the responsible thing. Breeding their dogs and then coming here to ask for help, then NOT even taking the advice of the breeders here unless it supports your prior views is NOT responsible. And just for the record, no one made rude comments until the OP of that particular thread started making excuses and arguing with the people trying to answer her questions.

I don't like to get mad...it rarely ever happens...but I am PISSED right now. :mad:

So I'm done.

More than one knowledgable breeder has left this site and in at least one case I know of...it's because they do not want to be affiliated with some of the hatefulness found here.

There are some knowledgable breeders here and I respect their opinions. They willingly share their knowledge in a respectful manner. That being said...I am not a newbie I know who they are...and honestly if I had questions I would contact them via pm. Why? Because I'd get blasted by others for asking the question.

Sometimes I read someone's response and think....where you born breeding? Cause everyone started somewhere.

I don't think people that get upset about these kind of posts have a holier than thou attitude. Anyone who is thinking about owning a dog, breeding a dog, should know the basics before hand, period. It's just not fair to the future mom or pups to be if you don't. If you are a breeder, you would or should know why these are upsetting questions to ask after the fact. I sure hope the link posted here was a troll and not real. We seem to have responsible breeders here at YT, and responsible breeders that see questions ( like in the link ) might be blunt. Again unless you are a breeder or have raised fragile pups you might not understand how awful it is to know there are people out there breeding and not knowing the first thing about it.

Hey cool down, I am not trying to get you angry at all. I am just saying that we should be more understanding is all. I can totally understand being upset with someone who is carelessly bringing dogs into the world. I just think that someone who cares enough to ask questions deserves a respectful answer. They say there are no stupid questions, but when questions are asked here, sometimes people are made to feel very stupid.
I could really go on about bringing lives into this world without knowing about what you are getting into, but I will back out of that one. I will say though, that it seems that people are blasted for not doing enough homework about bringing dogs into the world, yet how many people do their homework about being a mother before they have children? People learn as they go, year by year as parents. What about how they feed their children? Does everyone put as much effort into finding the absolutely more perfect food for their children (only a raw fruit and veggie diet?) and NEVER let their child have sugar because its bad for them, the way they do for their dogs?
I am not trying to get anyone angry, I just wish people could show some sympathy for those less blessed with knowlege of breeding. I never knew anything about breeding (except what my mom could tell me about dobermans) when my lab had pups years and years back. I have grown tremendously since then from doing my homework, and it took time. If the people helping me told me how horrible and irresponsible I was for breeding her, I probably would have acted in a very unchristian way at that point.

No, it wasn't as I already pointed out with my very first sentence. It was a GENERAL statement about the situation in it's entirety. Not a comment you or anyone else in particular made...not any one comment or any one person or any one situation. This has been an ongoing problem spanning over many situations and involving many different members. The thread I posted was just a prime example of the feelings being expressed, nothing more.
I'm sorry if that was confusing...I didn't want that argument from that thread to continue here...just to use it as an example as it perfectly exemplified the issue I was trying to address.
I guess next time I should use a few more disclaimers...lol.

:thumbup: Great posting!

Very well said!

I dont think the breeders have to have a holier than thou attitude however breeders dont have to post here. The amount of breeders that post in the breeder section has drastically reduced since Ive been here. I think when someone posts a question here they should be happy there is someone qualified enough to answer it. That is not always the case

Seems like some of the comment on this thread only reinforces the OP's point. I've seen many questions asked here that make me go "OMG, what are they doing breeding?" but ignorance isn't necessarily stupidity. I'm far from the most experienced breeder here but I feel anyone that found their way here at least loves their dogs and are trying. Everyone has to start somewhere and, no, I'm not suggesting that breeding Yorkies is for everyone but, my gosh, how do you learn anything if you don't know what it is that you don't know? I don't think new people here read every thread before posting a question. They just ask what's on their mind and many get a real kick in the pants for asking. It amazes me that on the general discussion forum people will do the dumbest things that result in the death of their dog and they get nothing but sympathy and here, well here is a tough place sometimes. I've posted before that the short leap from blunt to rude is made all too often. I was raised to try to be polite, especially with people you don't know. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. The purpose of this forum would be better served by everyone trying a little more kindness. I'm sure the advice being offered would be better heeded if put to people a little more gently :aimeeyork :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :)

I absolutely agree with you Misty. I can't believe what I read, and to be blunt it's not just questions (we all have Q's), but bad advise from new breeders. In general, I think there's a careless feeling. One can feel like an oddball for standing out when the majority has shifted (I'm not talking cliques, never been in one, don't care to be). I have to admit, I'll log on and accidentally leave my comp on (we have cable) so it'll appear to someone I'm on all the time lol. But I do log on and sometimes with all the advise on breeding given by breeders and non breeders is just a "turn off". Lord help, if anyone takes offense too bad, I don't mean it.

I know how you feel. Breeder Talk, to me isn't for my entertainment, I actually want to help especially if a mom or puppy is in trouble. Non breeders of course are welcome, I know they learn alot and I enjoy their posts. Most are supportive, some just like to put down breeders or stir the pot.

I've been thankful for Breeder Talk, I post 99.9 percent in this forum. I used to learn alot. I hope everyone continues to.

You are absolutely right! That was just what I was thinking when I read back through the replies, thinking to myself, "This is exactly what I'm talking about.":(

I used to log on to YT to chat, laugh and learn with "friends." It used to be more 'fun' but...that doesn't always seem to be the case now. In the past weeks there were times when I needed to 'escape' and would log on to YT because for so long that was what it was for me...somewhere to go and talk w/ friends and enjoy it. But that's not the case now...I'd log on for a minute, read and just cut of the PC. And it sucks!

:thumbup: I agree...
BUT there are some posts made that just make your jaw DROP :eek: :eek:
I'm not a professional breeder.BUT I am not a careless BYB.
I researched and learned all I could for almost 2 years before even thinking of breeding. I think that most of those here really are trying to be helpful.
But it does get a bit nasty at times.All of them did start somewhere.
But I know it wasn't by a YT post of silliness...
Not picking on anyone here. But when dogs kept outside....not even knowing what a TIE is...nothing about the gestation period , or complications that can AND do happen a lot with Yorkies.
Is just not responsible breeding in my book.
Not that all "professional breeders" are.....
But there is a wonderful amount of info here, for those who are open to it.
And though I know a lot...I learn so much here.
Most of the people here are great...

I've never been one to come down on anyone at all (well that is, if you don't count an experienced breeder breeding 3 pound dogs on purpose). I know you're speaking in general, I agree. Things can be said tactfully but must be done so bluntly and not sugar coated. I guess the difference between the forums is that people expect that the breeders should have more knowledge/experience than to be plain ignorant as some have been in the past. That's not said to insult, there are ignorant people everywhere as well as forum trolls, just as there are caring breeders and well intentioned posters that want to learn.

[quote=BamaFan121s;1864912]I hope things are better for you now.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Getting there, slowly. Thanks. :)

Yes, I was speaking generally. I agree with you about breeding 3 pound females. In 2006, I bought a little girl, absolutely gorgeous, great pedigree. She grew to have a wonderful coat, perfect proportions and only more gorgeous. Let me tell you, I REALLY wanted to breed her but, by one year old, she had only reached 3 pounds. With MUCH regret, I had her spayed. She now fulfills her role as 'House Princess'. P.S. Last year I purchased a full brother of hers'. :D :D :D

I bet it was heart breaking to have to spay such a great representation of the breed, but I want to say I commend you for doing the right thing and spaying her!!

She sounds like a beauty! I'll bet her brother will produce some like her. I know how it is, the gorgeous one you're watching to grow just doesn't make the cut for being a mom. Then again, they're the ones you can spoil and look at all day long lol

Excellent Post Misty:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I just couldn't agree more. It just saddens me so much what most breeders have done to this wonderful breed. Yorkies are massed produced...no health screening done and no regard to if the dog even meetss the standard...and now we have many yorkies that don't even look like a yorkie according to the standard. And look at the health problems that plague this breed...yes, even the best breeders sometimes contribute to this..but it's mostly a resuls of bybs and puppymills. People breed tiny dogs and put their lives at risk just so they can lie to the public about having "teacups" and make $$$. It's just sickening. IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE :thumbdown

And I am SICK of people being more worried about being rude to a newbie over the safety and well-being of the dog. Things need to be said whether the person wants to hear it or not. People need to get over their pride, ego, or whatever and listen to good advise when it is given. Most people don't care because they are out to make $$$...they don't want to take the time and spend the money for quality dogs or for health screening...they just want to pop out puppies and *hope* they aren't ever responsible for the defects they produce. These breeders cause heartache for the new family and pain for the puppy they brought into this world.

I'm not a breeder but I know what it takes to breed to right way. I've done my research so that I can find a reputable breeder in the future. It's sad when I know more about the breed and breeding ethically than some breeders... it's not that difficult to do your research before breeding! I for one refuse to help any breeder breeding for the wrong reasons...yes, I care about the poor dogs...but I will NOT support bad breeding period. If someone is really trying to learn and willing to listen, I'll talk to them all day long if that's what they want...I'm willing to help anyone, no matter the subject, if they want the help. But I will not be apart of reckless breeding.

I'm just sick of it...why can't people just educate themselves before they buy a dog and definitely before they breed it? Breed for the right reasons. Breed the right way!

I am one of those people who read read read....I surf the net, read books...join forums etc. ANYTHING I can to learn.
I tend to be silly sometimes with my posts.
Just to lighten the tone of the board sometimes. (like my goat post)
I have to say tho...sometimes if you're one of those who really is trying to help it must become sooooooo irritating...
Not me...I leave most of the answering to the experts :)
And so many times its the same questions!
I wonder if some dont know HOW to do a search.
Then some I think ARE just trolls.
But I'm pretty good at trolls too.
When I first got online 10 years ago..It was to join a gay group when my son came out. Big time trolls...lol
Its just part of the online experience.
Somewhere I read where someone, a newbie I think
Said ,"well I just put them on ignore if I dont like what they say."
Now....lot of good THAT is going to do ya..
Read...learn...be open to learning
Not just to what you WANT to hear :) :) :) :)

Yes, she gets plenty of spoiling and she has MUCH attitude (as befits a lady of her station ;) ) but I guess I'm digressing fro the OP's purpose. At the risk of digressing even more, may I suggest y'all check out 'Best In Show', a movie about dog shows. It is LMAO funny!! We could all use a good laugh here. :aimeeyork :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :animal-pa :)