How does a breeder handle slamming?
 

I have been breeding for 20+ years and have lost one puppy in shipping (due to airline delay, which I replaced immediately), and now have my first pup that had Occipital atlanto axial subluxation which has been branded congenital and stated in the forum that my whole line is from this bloodline. If the person making the acusation did not know, I might be more understanding, but she did.
This condition, according to what I have read can been caused from a congential problem or from an injury. Not only did she do heavy "training", she took this pup to two different vets which one "adjusted" the pup's neck. He is two pounds, those little bones do not handle much adjusting or they will pop out of place. She ended up at Tex. A&M, we talked all the time, I found and sent her articles, got my vet to send all info we had,sat up with her late at night while she tried to deside what to do. I offered to exchange the pup and continue the treatment myself, which she would not hear of. I was not surprised, you get really attached to these little ones. Now she makes it sould like my yorkies are such horrible things, people saying they look sick,etc....it could not be futher from the truth.

This was the first litter (test litter) of an unkown dam I had purchased and one of my sires. The person making the accusation chose the smallest pup in a large litter, had to have it, even though I did not want to sell him and when I did sell him it was as a pet quality, even though he is beautiful.

I gave her a huge break in price, because the most important thing to me is finding a good home for my babies, and I have known her since she was in high school with my son. I even gave her half of her purchase price back when she was doing the surgery, without grudge. I have a contract that says I am not liable, but these are my babies. I have always tried to think of what was best for the pup and the new parent.

I know you cannot make money in yorkies, but they are my life, I just try to breed (every 2 seasons) my dams to provide enough to pay for the necessities to care for them. It is the core of my happiness.

You can have wonderful experiences with new litters (even the 2 am sessions at the vet doing a c-section). We take our dams in for checks during pregnancy, get the x-ray one week prior to delivery, and have special cameras on her and all the pups in the nursery, when I am not physically with her.

If a pup is born or shows signs of any problems I am right to the vet. I rarely sell pups that have shown any problems in those early days....all this said, yorkies all came from the same gene pool and have similar potential issues- hypoglycemia, liver shunts (God forbid), etc. There are traits that we do not want , but do occassionally occur,either from predisposition, injury, or over taxing a puppy. Once we find something undesirable, we remove that dam or sire from the breeding program.

We do our best to educate the new adoptive parent on what to watch for, keep up with each puppy placed, and keep close and accurate records. I do not mean to whine, but I am just so hurt. I did not think that someone would make such a posting--a warning...I guess my whole life has been my yorkies for so many years now, going through the AKC inspections, which I received 28 out of 28; the keeping of distinct bloodlines, no inbreeding, getting good healthy, happy puppies, It just breaks my heart.

What does one do if you have been slammed? If your kennel, (mine is a two story, ac/heated, and free standing, has its own water, washer dryer/etc.)has been flagged as needing a warning to prospective buyers to not come, not to mention buy. And they do read and have responded...

We have put a lot of money and time on our babies, without grudge, without regret, until now. What do you do?

Janis Hendrick
Hendrick House Kennel

There are ALWAYS two sides to the story, and both parties can have a way of twisting things in their favor (NOT saying you're doing that...but it just happens naturally). I think nobody will ever really know except you and this person. Have you tried talking with her about these posts? I guess there will always be people who don't like you, but I can understand how you must feel, especially if it wasn't your fault. :(

Omg I am not sure if I saw a thread about this or not... I never remember like some on here...
this is quite the story I must say...

Two sides of a story?
 

Thank you for your optimism, but I have talked to Vicki, many times. Never once did she ever give me any indication that she had any reservations about my yorkies. In fact, she always said she never saw any better....it has really taken me by surprise. The worse part is that my daughter in law is the one who sent me the info, I usually do not have time to sit at the computer, I would much rather be with the yorkies.

They are wonderful, if I can figure out how to post pictures you can see my babies. They are beautiful, healthy and wonderful.

Janis

Texas A&M University is the #3 Vet School in the country with brilliant veterinarians and top technology. It was clear that Bleu's defect was hereditary. He was born with this defect. It was NOT caused by injury alone. The bones were not "popped out of place". The bones hadn't formed the way they were supposed to. This IS a hereditary defect.

She never said one word about your dogs looking sick. Other YT member said that. Anyone can look at your website www.yorkiesoftexas.com and see what your dogs and puppies look like.

Why were you breeding an "unknown" dam? You should have researched her pedigree and screened her BEFORE breeding.

You sell your dogs for $1500-$2500 a piece. You aren't showing, aren't breeding quality dogs, and who knows what health testing you do...what makes your puppies worth that much? You have 12 dams listed on your site and you stated you breed them every season...so about twice a year. That's quite a few puppies being sold at an average of $2000 apiece. It doesn't take that much money to pay for necessities. There is obviously a nice profit involved.

You have the dam and grandsire of Bleu still on your website as your breeding dogs. You have his sire for sale as "breeding stock and proven stud". So they have not been removed from breeding. Removed from breeding means spay/neutered and not allowed to breed again. Also, you can't blame a hereditary problem on injury everytime...

I'm sorry but you won't find any sympathy here. Many of us have yorkies with genetic problems due to bad breeding. There are too many unreputable breeders out there breeding for the wrong reasons. Breeding for profit is NOT the reason to breed. You are learning the hard way that breeding poor quality dogs can come back to bite you in the butt. I thank God for those that do post warnings about a breeder - it saves others from getting a sick, poorly-bred dog. I just feel so bad for the poor dogs suffering because of bad breeders :(

No one is "slamming" you. Everything that has been said is truth. What would I do? I'd take a step back and take a good, long look at my breeding program. I'm sure you have put a lot of money into your breeding program and have made quite a bit of money too, but that's not the right reasons to breed. Why not spay and neuter all these dogs (that clearly should not be used for breeding) and place them in pet homes. If you truly want to breed, start attending shows and learn what a quality yorkie is. Start over...and breed for the right reasons.

LOL... I saw that, too! And not to mention that a few of them look like mixes (or badly bred Yorkies) of Yorkie/Chihuahua
They all luck so sad :(

I would like to know what red flags you see on this ladies site? This is just me being curious, I haven't looked at her site yet.

Breeder Slammed
 

Would you tell if slam was on YT, or where it was posted? Maybe we can understand all sides to be supportive of your side.

Many of us have yorkies with genetic problems due to bad breeding.


That is so true! And the poor innocent yorkie suffers life long! So unfair, now I am getting angry.

For me personally:

Sells "Teacups". Even says "Breeders of Tiny Yorkies" at top of home page
Kennel Situation (not automatically a red flag, but I prefer home-raised)
Dams are 3-6lbs (5-7lbs is preferred..no smaller than 4.5lbs should be bred)
Sires are 2-4lbs (all tiny)
12 dams on site (not automatically a red flag but that's a LOT of females IMO)
Dogs do not meet the standard..clearly not of quality for breeding
Most dams do not look well-groomed
6 sires on site (not automatically a red flag but that's a LOT of studs IMO)
Puppies from 6 different litters for sale at once
Selling a "rare chocolate" (not even a chocolate...looks like a blue born)
Puppies look poorly bred
Selling "breeding stock" males
Sells on full registration w/ no questions asked
Can paypal a deposit straight from the website
1 year guarantee for only "life-threatening" defects. Requires puppy be returned or will only give a partial refund

I have not really read too much into all of this with Bleu..so I dont really have alot to add..I dont agree with breeding tinies or selling odd coloured puppies as "rare" and jacking up the prices on them. On the other hand I would think it is possible that adjusting the neck on a tiny puppy could be very dangerous but again I am not a doctor nor do I claim to know the in's and out's..I just dont even agree with humans having their necks adjusted..Ive heard too many horror stories..so I just cant imagine it with a tiny puppy. I can tell the OP does have sincere love for her puppies although she does need to realize that breeding these tiny puppies is just wrong and it isnt doing anything for the breed. I feel bad for all involved here..I really sense the OP is sincere..and sincerly didnt mean to hurt anyone..but that is just a feeling I get. She isnt being nasty or rude..maybe just ignorant about breeding?? I dont know the right words..I also dont know about breeding..is it typical for a breeder to pay for surgery when they offered to take the puppy back or replace it? If it were a different condition say liver shunt..would the breeder be responsible for paying for that?? I am soooooooooo not trying to argue anyone..I am quite ignorant myself to the breeding world...I guess its just my gut feeling that the OP loves her dogs..what is the solution now? Is she to pay the total costs for the surgery..or the total cost for Bleu? I would think a full refund would be in order in any case for sure..man its such a sad situation all around..

Dawn

I totally agree with you! I feel bad for both too; however, I don't agree with breeding such tiny females, I don't think she has the best quality dogs for breeding and I agree they should be better groomed, more taken care of.
JMO.

I feel like a reputable breeder would have either paid for the surgery or at least given a partial refund since the price of the surgery exceeded the purchase price. I really feel like she was owed an entire refund at the least...paying for part of the surgery would have been nice as well.

I think most (and I sure could be wrong) breeders would not pay for the surgery as she offered to take the dog back, but do agree at that point she should have refunded the full purchase price.

oops...I meant to say that I feel like a reputable breeder would have either paid for the surgery or at least given a FULL refund since the price of the surgery exceeded the purchase price.

Here's what I've wondered about; what would have happened to Bleu if had Vicki decided to take Janis up on the offer of returning him? I know Vicki wouldn't have because she was in love and attached to Bleu, but what if? Janis would you have put out the $10,000. for his surgery? Somehow I just don't think so.:(

I always wonder that when breeders say you have to return the sick pup. Do they put them down? That is just part of the reason the person never returns the dog, plus they are attached at that point.
I think a good breeder then feels responsible and as said before even if they dont pay for the surgery, reimburses for the dog as they are glad (and lucky) that somebody else has taken on that burden.

I feel like most breeders say the dog must be returned in order to get a replacement, and the know most people won't do this because they are attached to and love the dog. It's more of a protection for the breeder than the buyer and dog. If they sell a sick dog, they know it won't be returned so they won't have to pay or replace the dog...and honestly, would you want another dog (even free) from a breeder that you know is breeding dogs with defects? I personally wouldn't

Reputable breeders offer to take the dog back, but they don't require that the dog be returned. In my opinion, a reputable breeder would either pay for the cost of health care or at least refund the total amount if the cost of care exceeded the purchase price.

If I was a breeder and sold a dog for $1500, and it needed surgery that ended up costing $10,000. I would first refund the entire amount of the dog. And I would most likely pay for some of the surgery (but that is just what I would do...I feel like a breeder should be responsible and stand behind their dogs. If they sell a sick dog, they make it right)

What about the sire and dam? What would a "reputable" breeder do with them? Spay/Neuter? What about all of the sire/dam brothers, sisters? Again just curious, and trying to learn!!

I dont know how a statement like that can be made if you dont know know for sure that she wouldnt have paid for the surgery...that makes me sad to hear that when you dont even know this person..

Dawn

If it were me, I would eliminate all relatives from my lines. I would spay and neuter sire and dam (and any other dogs back in the pedigree if I owned them). I would also spay/neuter any offspring I had from either sire, dam, or both. I would also contact anyone that bought offspring that had any of those dogs in their pedigree and have the dog checked out for the condition.

I just want to say I feel badly for both parties involved. I don't know who is at fault as there are only two people who know the real story.


I took a look at your site and I must say that the "rare chocolate" that is from your Pachex and Nitro really concerns me.
She doesn't look like a true chocolate, a true chocolate has a liver color nose and pigment.
Her hair is very sparse and thin which leads me to believe she is a blue born. Her nails are very long and really need cut. Altogether she looks very unhealthy and if it were me I wouldn't be selling her at all on certainly not for $2500.

I don't know if you are uninformed about blue borns and mistakenly took her as a chocolate instead but blue borns develop severe health problems and the parents of course should be spayed and neutered right away.
Here is a link to blue borns and what a blue born pup and a chocolate pup looks like.
http://www.goldenrayyorkies.com/Gene...Chocolate.html

Wow, thats a lot of dams and sires on that site! I don't think the pics are very flattering as many of the dogs and pups look scared.
I agree that I'm not seeing the chocolate in the "chocolate". I dont see the liver pigment at all, and it looks like the face is shaved which makes him look like a chi.
I'm not trying to pick on the breeder, but there wouldnt be as many flags going up if you didnt have all the TINY wording, such tiny dams, and your pictures were better quality and better taken.
Right now your site might be cute to the uneducated eye, but honestly, to some it may appear puppy mill-ish. Especially when anyone can just "order" one of your puppys.
I am sure you love your dogs, but the ladys on here made a lot of good points about spaying/neutering some of them that should not be breeding anymore.

Immediately saw "breeding tiny yorkies" and the word teacup. Those are red flags IMO and just seeing that would have me immediately look elsewhere no matter how cute her (or anyone elses) dogs are or aren't

$10,000 at A&M??????????

I'm sorry ALOT of people at YT have poor representations of the breed. I hoope you don't insult those (I know she's a breeder and most others purchased there dogs, given) but there are breeders with dogs like this too.

Geez, if you weren't slammed before, you have been now. Why don't we just run her off along and she'll never learn anything, and keep breeding these dogs. At least she's here and can listen.

The facts are there, Bleu is sick. I have to say and everyone should already know this - Even the best of breeders over time will have something pop up. And of course the parents spayed/neutered.

Her website leaves a lot to desire, T-cups, prices (for these types of dogs)rare chocolates and such. Big no no's. Really big is the fact that she's still breeding the parents.

There's no need to be a pit of vipers. Everything can be said tactfully, no wonder everyone is scared to ask a question.

OP: Bleu is sick with a congenital defect. You need to stop breeding his parents. No one wants to sentence a puppy to the kind of life his body has had to endure. As for your others, I don't think they are good representations of the breed. And "T-cup" is a buzz word, a tool to have uneducated buyers come in and buy. I strongly recommend cleaning up your program, starting over with a couple of dogs (new dogs, know their lines and be sure their healthy and adhere to the standard) and yes, you could change your reputation here on YT with time and effort. It's only going to be changed by the dogs breed and ethics.

I'm sorry ALOT of people at YT have poor representations of the breed. I hoope you don't insult those (I know she's a breeder and most others purchased there dogs, given) but there are breeders with dogs like this too.

Geez, if you weren't slammed before, you have been now. Why don't we just run her off along and she'll never learn anything, and keep breeding these dogs. At least she's here and can listen.

The facts are there, Bleu is sick. I have to say and everyone should already know this - Even the best of breeders over time will have something pop up. And of course the parents spayed/neutered.

Her website leaves a lot to desire, T-cups, prices (for these types of dogs)rare chocolates and such. Big no no's. Really big is the fact that she's still breeding the parents.

There's no need to be a pit of vipers. Everything can be said tactfully, no wonder everyone is scared to ask a question.

OP: Bleu is sick with a congenital defect. You need to stop breeding his parents. No one wants to sentence a puppy to the kind of life his body has had to endure. As for your others, I don't think they are good representations of the breed. And "T-cup" is a buzz word, a tool to have uneducated buyers come in and buy. I strongly recommend cleaning up your program, starting over with a couple of dogs (new dogs, know their lines and be sure their healthy and adhere to the standard) and yes, you could change your reputation here on YT with time and effort. It's only going to be changed by the dogs breed and ethi


:thumbup: Very well said.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: that is very well said

Thanks everyone for your answers to my questions...learning lots!!:D

IMO
The breeder is charging way too much for her puppies.

In this case the full purchase price should have been refunded and the breeder should have been grateful that the buyer was so loving and willing to keep the puppy under the circumstances.

On the other hand, I can't feel too bad for a buyer that pays that much for a dog fram a breeder that she knows nothing about.

Researching the breeder is far more important than trying to find the perfect sized dog.

The buyer no doubt wanted a tiny, and contrary to what breeders of tines would like us to believe, there is a greater risk with health and soundness.

When it comes to buying any living creature, there is always a risk.

I agree :thumbup: