This letter from the YTCA foundation about Dr. Center's AKC grant proposal also contains the recommendation to get a bile acids test done on all puppies before they go to their new home. It's in the closing paragraph:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

I believe Dr. Center is scheduled to lecture at the 2008 specialty. That may clear up some of the confusion over the BAT test.

In the case of a shunt, the liver would have to be about 70% damaged (don't have a reference...sorry) to have a raised ALT, so a blood panel is inconclusive.

Royal Canin can make them go up?:confused: :eek: Interesting...

Just about any med could cause falsely elevated bile acids. Ellie's specialist says the more they learn, the more they don't know...

Eukanuba can too. In fact any kind of puppy food can.

I do agree with this. I have a yorkie, nuertered, that has LP. He was fine when we got him, my BIL was just stupid while I was out shopping with my sister and had him running up and down their deck stairs.. the rises were to high for him, he was only 1.9 pounds at the time.. apparently they did this all afternoon.. I was mad :mad: and I told him the why's.. I had already told him to leave him be in two 3x5 cages put together on the ends so he has room for one side to sleep and play, the other was a pp pad and water..Needless to say I to believe that too many people think it is cute for their little yorkie to jump up and stand on their hind legs. I know a girl that has to show me every time he little 3.5 pound yorkie is outside and jumps high enough for her to see her in the screen/glass area of her door.. every time I tell her the same time.. does not help.. but people do not realized these little guys are fragile.
Although I do think it can certainly be genetic.. kacee got this at like 5/6 months old, it would not have been the breeders fault. and she had not had any of these problems with any other puppy.. I still keep in touch with her to this day.
I take my puppies to the vet, have all shots kept updated, keep them as healthy as possible.. If my vet says a puppy is to young to do bile acid testing, then I will wait as you never breed a young puppy anyway. I do not test my puppies, I have had 7 and had a problem with my little gracie, and it came from dad, so he is now with my friend as a pet only. I will not breed a yorkie, if I know there is anything genetically wrong with one or the other.. I would not sell a sick puppy. I also have my puppies shots and first worming done at the vets. I then get wormer to take home for me to do after that. but all needles I believe should be done with a vet, not a breeder. I also got stung with a yorkie, that at 6 months I was told had all shots, (by breeder) other then rabies.. two months later she got parvo, the breeder called me an idiot. She was/is a huge show breeder in Canada..
I have so far kept in touch with all my babies new parents.. one comes to visit me in the winter every couple days, plays with all my guys and leave.
I would not breed a yorkie that has any huge personality problems, they have to be fun loving, outgoing, liking people and other dogs.. ( I do watch them too much) I do not take my dogs into a pet store.
I do not let my puppies go until they are 12 weeks, although I have when the person was around the corner and came over daily.. I have also allowed puppy to go daily with new parents once. In the agreement that the dog is not put down on any strange ground.. and I make sure new owners are so aware of parvo and the effects of wanting to take puppies for a walk too early. Amazing how many people have no clue about parvo,, even though they have had other dogs..
I do not use my stud dog as a stud to anyone.
Most of all, I try to have my babies in cages at night prior to leaving, I have them very socialized and not afraid to be picked up and get to go outside in my back yard once they have had a first parvo shot. I am a little to protective with the baby's.. not wanting people to just want to come and see. too much to worry about.
All my dogs get blood work done on them. So far I have had great luck with my baby's and the new parents. all my dogs must be spayed or neutered. I always have to call me when it is done. I have not sold any of my baby's for breeding.
Hope I did not leave anything out.

I agree with most of this.... except I've always given my own vaccinations and worming... I think many breeders do... I always attach the batch number label to the vaccination record so that the new vet will know what the pup has been given...

I think you bring up a good point though, about people coming and going around your dogs / puppies.

So many people complain about breeders not welcoming them into their homes with open arms... of course, it's natural to want to come see the parents and family of the pup you want to make a part of your world... see how they interact, how they are "kept" / cared for... their living environment....

But with all the nasty things out there that new pups can be exposed to - before ever having built up an immunity .... even the parents of the pups, can be exposed to disease and bring it back to the litter.... heck, even WE can, for that matter....

Personally, I prefer to limit as much as possible, any outside elements... and I've never "been okay" with allowing people into my home to "meet the parents"....

Some folks will allow it.... some will have visitors wear booties/masks/sterile gowns, etc.... but I don't care to take the risk.... way too much to lose.

I will look into this further about bile acid testing on the puppies, my vet says no.. and we all think our vets are so good, but like human doctors, some will do things that others do not agree with. even second opinions does not always make the decision easier.

This next part has nothing to do with breeding dogs.. But a good example of how doctors differ, I am meaning human or pet docs/.

I needed a new hip over 20 years ago. I was only mid 30's. I had been told my pain was all in my head for years.

Well then we moved and, an orthopedic surgeon tells me I need a new hip but was too young. So an osteotomy was done. I could not walk for 6 months. Then we moved again (military) 18 months later , and the doctor that had told me there was nothing wrong with me got to take out the pins and plates in my hip.. again he said I should never have had the surgery done, I did not have osteoarthritis in my hips.

Then the time came I needed a hip on the other side, the doctor that said I did not have this problem actually trained this new doctor that did my second hip surgery. before he did my surgery, I was still frustrated. I had two docs one saying I needed surgery and one did not, I was in such chronic pain.

Now this doctor is doing a surgery and I was so crippled and yet still confused as to which of the other two doctors were actually right, the one who did the first surgery or the one who said I should never of had it done.
The doctor that did not ever feel I needed surgery actually trained this new doctor that did my second hip surgery and full hip replacement.

When it was done 5years ago, This new doctor came into my room, they do not have time in this day and age to take time with patience after surgery. But he knew how confused I really was.. He came into my room and said he could not understand how I walked at all..that I really did have bad bad hips.

I just thought this was a good example of doctor's. I also think it can make posts get heated, as one doctor can believe what another does not.

I also hope it was ok to use this as an example for us all to understand. And Myfairlacy I think you becoming a vet is so good.. But I would like to know down the road, meeting other vets trained in a different school, how you will both think, will it be the same or will you be taught some beliefs that maybe another was trained different on some things.. I hope I am around long enough to learn more and more from you. :)

I'm confused.:p

The only thing different about puppy food is high protein and high fat. Those shouldn't make the numbers go up because a high reading after a high fat meal is consider a problem... hmmmm

Just when you think you have it figured out......:rolleyes: :(

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet. I agree that Health screening is important but that doesn't catch whether or not they are a carrier of congenital defects.

For some things you just need to know the line they are coming from. For example, your female may not have liver shunt but she may very well be a carrier and there is currently no way to test for that so you would need to be very familiar with the line she came from. She could also tend to throw open fonts, again no way to test for this.

Knowing their line is just as important as health screening. Again, it all comes down to knowing the breeder you get them from (if they have not come from your own line).

that's it. The high protein and fat.

The vaccination protocol that one of the world's leading authorities on veterinary vaccines, Dr. W. Jean Dodds, uses for canines, does not recommend vaccinating puppies before the age of 9 weeks. I feel that breeders and vets that are vaccinating before that age are doing much more harm than good. Breeders, whether they give shots themselves or have the vet do it, should wait until the pups are at least 9 weeks old. Ideally, I think 10 and 14 weeks are the best ages for vaccinations. There is an excellent post today under the 'health' thread on vaccinations and the op will email you tons of valuable information on vaccinations. Also, keep in mind that vaccinations are not totally fool proof. Just like in humans, the doctors push the flu shot but many people still get the flu.

I've posted Dr. Dodds recommended puppy vaccination....not to be done prior to 8 weeks of age. Given at 8, 12 & 16 weeks.....and a booster at one year after the final vaccine.

I understand, however, Dr. Centers does further explain a better read is obtained at 6 months of age.

It is also known that acquired LS can show up later in a dogs life.

What I'm really excited about is the DNA testing that will determine the carriers. Bile Acids at this time will tell you if your dog has or doesn't have LS, but does not tell you if your dog is a carrier.

I'm really excited about this too. Liver shunt is so prevelant in yorkies...it would be wonderful to know 100% that a dog is not a carrier :thumbup:

Don't feel like the lone ranger......Dr. Tobias did extensive testing on LS and several breedings were done with no definitive outcome. She did a multitude of variables, with LS dogs and without LS dogs....

This is a very good and interesting thread:) great info for all:thumbup:

Terri Shumsky, the champion of the yorkie breed, worked closely with Dr. Tobias....Dr. Tobias found yorkies had a 39% greater chance of LS. But, it is my understanding that Maltese are pretty much up there too.

I had a grooming client that had taken her dog in for a nueter.....her vet contacted her to inform her that he couldn't conduct it because his levels were off. He sent her to a Specialist to conduct further testing. All tests indicated LS. Surgery was performed and when they opened him up, no shunt.

Let me add the reason for this is because the Yorkie digestive track and ability of the liver to process is different.

Interesting...

Ellie's postprandial bila acids are 106 right now. MVD has been almost ruled out through biopsy and it doesn't seem to be a shunt. Go figure.:rolleyes: Actually an educated guess right now would be her pancreas having something to do with it. So bile acids are a crazy thing.

I thought an ultrasound was normally done before surgery to confirm a shunt?

And it was....all indicated shunt.....

So, as I was told by my vet....yorkies are an anomoly and sometimes the normal tests on them fail.

I think that is one of the main reasons Dr. Center recommends a BAT before the puppy even goes home, to avoid over testing later on and misdiagnosing.

Yes, isn't here AKC proposal exciting? I think she is supposed to find out if she has been approved in March. We have a breeder on our Maltese forum who will be providing samples for her research.

Even if she isn't approved, she still intends on conducting her study. This is a letter one of our other members received from Dr. Center:

Hi Mary,

I am just putting the last touch on the AKC proposal; there were some questions they wanted addressed.. My collaborators are reading the final response and will be sent in within a few days. We will know within the next 2 months of funding. Looking good though. So, donations should wait until we hear from AKC. If they are not going to sponsor it, send money to Cornell: PSVA/MVD Research: Dr. Center

If they sponsor it: money should go to AKC as my understanding they match every dollar donated by a breed group.

Sharon


So, if her grant application gets approved Dr. Center suggests sending donations to the AKC Canine Health Foundation with instructions that the donation be added to the Maltese Donor Advised Fund. That way, any money that the AMA uses from that fund to support Dr. Center's research may be matched by the AKC CHF. If the AKC CHF does not approve her grant application then Dr. Center suggests sending the money directly to Cornell. The addresses for both organizations are:

The AKC Canine Health Foundation
PO Box 37941
Raleigh, NC 27627-7941
Link to Donation Form: http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/donor_form.pdf

Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine
PO Box 726
Ithaca, NY 14851

Please make checks payable to Cornell University and send with a note that your donation be applied to "PSVA/MVD Research: Dr. Center"

Most of the time, ultrasounds are inconclusive, meaning that the dog may very well have a shunt, but it is not seen on the u/s because of it's position, etc. U/S are more effective for looking at the size of the liver to see if it has atrophied and also for looking for bladder stones which are very common in dogs with shunts. Since most of the time, they don't see a shunt, the next step they recommend is a scintigraphy for finding the shunt....BUT it requires anesthesia...So, Dr. Center does a Protein C test first instead of the scintigraphy because it does not require anesthesia and is very simple...This test helps determine if there is a shunt or MVD...

This is why I always tell people whose dogs are having liver shunt surgery to have the vets take a liver biopsy...Many, many dogs with AND without a visible shunt do have MVD, and the only way to know 100% is by having a liver biopsy done...

My yorkie has MVD, and he is a severe case...He is on a strict diet, supplements, lactulose in order for him to be healthy...If I miss even one day of lactulose or give him one thing he's not supposed to, he will seize...

It was my understanding, after attending a seminar conducted by a veterinary researcher at...(OSU or OU, don't remember which) that no vaccine can prevent a disease 100%. It prevents MOST of the time (and also can reduce the severity of the disease if it doesn't prevent it) but sometimes for varied reasons it just doesn't.

So the fact that a dog gets parvo doesn't in itself mean that the shot wasn't given. Of course, I don't know anything about your case in particular, just mentioning this because it seems many people mistakenly believe that vaccines will always prevent disease. They don't, just as they don't in humans.

Not only does the vaccination not prevent disease in 100% of cases.... but it can actually INITIATE in some cases, the very disease in the pup that we are trying to prevent.... so in essence, you can actually GIVE a pup parvo by giving him the vaccination to prevent it.... it's all a matter of how each pup's immune system handles the introduction of the virus into the body...

Lisa,
I think you did a wonderful job explaining yourself.
I have learned alot of things just through this post.
And also want to add to this I agree 100% of what you have said.
As a ethical breeder you should do all these things you have said.
and like you mentioned you just don't put two dogs together and
breed them you need to do your homework on the lines.
thank you for your post.
kathy

Ditto!