My first/oldest is a male which is why I wanted his "companion" to be a female. I love him to BITS! I love my little girl too, but they have completely opposite personalities. My male is a sweetheart and just a lover, whereas Bunny has ATTITUDE galore!!!
I definitely agree that males are more readily available from a breeder that shows. It seems like its easier to finish a male when you look at the pedigrees.

So I got a response.
She seems very knowledgeable, I'm very confused on what road to take.


Please do not apologize for your concern, It is very important when purchasing a dog that it is healthy and that comes from healthy lines. The breeding of half brother and sister is considered line breeding and done quite often to obtain and retain the better quality of pups and future breeding stock. If line breeding were something that increased the chance for future problems in a dog it would not be a common practice among reputable breeders. I am very familiar with the lines of the dogs that I breed and would never jeopardize my reputation by selling puppies that were more at risk for future problems. Line breeding is how "we" have kept and improved the standards for many breeds, it is why Yorkshire Terrriers are no longer 15-20 pound dogs. It is how we maintain good temperaments, and so much more. I would not have a problem refunding your deposit if you are not comfortable purchasing this puppy, but I assure you that an educated line breeding is no more at risk for problems than a total out cross. Thank you

breeding
 

I, agree 100%, an educated linebreeding is no more at risk for problems then an outcross...but this is not a linebreeding IMO..but we all differ.
If half siblings is considered linebreeding...what is inbreeding..there is only one combo closer..full sibs..I will ask a Can breeder I know..she has a degree in genetics.

Father/Daughter, Mother/son is called
back crossing"

brother/sister is the most intense inbreeding you can do.
Half siblings is called limited inbreeding

Linebreeding is some relationship between sire and dam...grandsire or granddam...tracing the pedigree back to a common relative.

Outcrossing is unrelated dogs.

If this breeder has followed every pup sold until at least 5 yrs and found no serious health issues, I would buy the pup with a one yr genetic guarantee...that should be given no matter the type breeding.

before Pat posted I looked it up in my book and it says that linebreeding is really very common just like your breeder states, but it seems like these are just too closely related to call it "linebreeding." She does sound very nice and very informative. I got a two year health guarantee from Bunny's breeder. If you really want one of her pups, ask her for the two year guarantee since the breeding is so close.

OR... have you spoken with the breeder from Edgewood to see if it will be possible to get a pup from one of her litters?

I would trust the breeder's advice on YT.

Edgewood
 

I would be interested to hear Cindy (Edgewood) opinion if this is considered a line or in breeding.
I have been reading alot of info on the internet today...the most common health issue caused by breeding too close is, loss of vigor. Dogs can be more prone to infections, viruses.. etc due to a compromised immune system. So to me that is worse then a physical deformity...like a bad bite or roach back. These problems come from recessive genes pairing up..but cause little or no health issues.

I was reading that in nature animals for the most part only inbreed when there is no other choice...well, I never knew that..how does an elephant or a tiger know who they are related to...I guess it is instinct.
Wolves do not inbreed and they are relatives of the dog..

The only problem I have with refunding somones deposit is that the pup that has been spoken for could've been sold instead of sitting "on-hold" for someone that didn't do their homework before the purchase. I think people need to realize they have to be responsible and if they decide they don't want a puppy, just be willing to bite the bullet. Most people are reasonable with their deposit practices. Now if someone said, I don't have a job to finish the payments, NOR care for the dog. I would offer them a full refund but, hey I decided I found another dog I like better, well you better get your deposit in becasue you are buying 2 dogs.

So as hard as it is going to be to get his little face out of my head I think I am going to pass on him :(
I actually got ahold of Cynthia and made an appointment to visit with her this week (thankfully she is not showing for a month so she has more free time and available puppies!)

Thanks for all your help and support guys, this was a REALLY tough decision but I now do not feel 100% comfortable and without the help from you guys I would not been able to do this.

:)

YorkieRose--what exactly IS linebreeding?

lovefor3yorkies-
Trust me I did ALL the research (how many first time dog owners do you know that research pedigrees?)
I have crossed my t's and dotted my i's to ensure that I would get the healthiest dog possible.
It is more than fair for me to get my deposit back considering I just learned of this particular breeders "in-breeding" practices. Not that I am mad at her but I think breeders should give full disclosure of any possible underlying genetic possibilities.

I'm not a breeder so take my opinion for whatever its worth, but I think it would be one thing if someone just changed their mind for no reason, but that is not the case here. No one would expect that their puppy has been inbred. Yorkville has done her homework by asking for the pedigrees and that is how she found out about the breeding practices. She has not said an unkind word about this breeder, simply that she doesnt want a pup from such close breeding. I think that is extremely responsible of her. I am not trying to take sides, but I can tell you I researched pedigrees on my second Yorkie, but I didnt have a clue on my first. I thank my lucky stars that I just got lucky on the first go around. Besides Yorkies are sooo popular that I would think that it wouldnt be a problem placing pups that are bred to standard.

inbreeding
 

I learned something today that I had long forgotten. When most of us think of inbreeding we think of physical deformities or neurological disease. Those defects are easy to see..but these are not the most common inbreeding problem..it is the decline of vigor..a breeder can honestly say they may have no deformed pups..but what about chronic ear infections, allergies, respiratory infections etc..
Of course unrelated parents can produce pups with these problems, but the inbreed pup is more inclined to be less vigorious...and the breeder may not attribute these problems as genetic..just a thought.

What would YT be without you??? Great info as always Pat! Thank you for sharing!

Pat what would your call half/half???

Inbreeding is mother to son, father to daughter, brother to sister
Line breeding is grandfather to granddaughter, grandmother to grandson

then halfbrother/halfsister is "inline" breeding lol
I know that inline doesnt exist but sounded good to me:)

I know many breeders do very well with inbreeding halfs and I havent heard of any major health issues

My mother inbred a lot, I have seen first hand, the good the bad and the ugly! Risky very very risky, but you can yield some beautiful pups if done right!

breeding
 

I think you hit on the real problem...when done right!! I would have to really trust the breeder to be honest about the line and would hope they followed the pups for a few years.
If there was no other way to get a quality puppy, then our hands would be tied..but as long as I have options I think I will linebreed..and many hobby breeders think that is nuts. Have you seen ads and the breeders states, "no in or line breeding "...
If you get a puppy with a problem, some vets are eager to ask to see a pedigree, then it is all the breeders fault..I am too old..LOL

I think many pet buyers rush to judgement though when they hear linebreeding or inbred, there are many sound reasons a seasoned breeder would do this.

My mother started when the big rage was a tea cup poodle!
she felt the tinier the better, so she bred mother to son and sister to brother. She got what she wanted some very sound tiny little poodles, but with almost every litter there was one that wasnt right emotional.

I recall an adorable little black we named her "tiki" she was a product of brother to sister, she was slow to develope as she got closer to one year old you could tell that she was mentally slow as well, soon after turn one we started to see her walk into walls, like she didnt even notice they were their and she wasnt blind. Poor thing degraded from there and was finally put down just before her 2nd birthday. She didnt grow more than the palm of your hand!

For someone like me that will never breed or show, but wanted a beautiful Yorkie that was bred for the standard, I really looked at the pedigree of my little girl when I picked her out and it was the neatest thing to talk with Bunny's breeder abt the linebreeding... when I was on the phone with her and asked her she didnt hesitate for a second she knew exactly why that dog had been pulled as a stud for that specific mating and in this case they were looking for a perfect topline which this male had. She explained that the pairs are so cafefully planned in her breeding program that they know exactly who they are going to bring in for a specific trait... I think I'm starting to babble, but I just wanted to share that... I love my linbred little girl.. she has her Poppa's topline and her mom's disposition!

I totally agree with this situation =)
 

I agee
 

I totally agree with Lovefor3yorkies. When a breeder or someone is selling their puppies/puppy they should be totally honest and upfront. It is people that don't that give us others a bad name and so we have to be very aware of this and be very open to buyers. We should be willing to answer any of their questions and give them as much information as possible up front even the ones they don't know to ask, so they can make a right decision. I pesonally would never/ever breed brother to sister or any kind of in-breeding. You will usually have a/some/all really weird pups - mentally or physically. If there are any bad faults they will show up two fold. She has tightly inbreed this pup. But why? What did she get? How are all the others? Did she know what she was doing? It sounds like she may be a backyard breeder only had what she had and wanted pups or could have accidently got together. What ever the reason, she is responsible for this litter of pups.
T.

I found this interesting..

The making of Yorkies or Yorkshire Terriers has been long disputed, and will most likely never be completely resolved. Most of the early breeders in England were illiterates, therefore the earliest breedings were not recorded.

Following are the three breeds (Clysdale Terrier, Scotish Terrier,Paisley Terrier) that are given the most credit for the weaving of the Yorkshire Terrier, and are not disbuted for being part of their history. They are mentioned in a number of documents in their country of origin, which is England. Theories have also included the Waterside Terrier, and Skye.

"the beginning of a yorkshire terrier all done with inbreding"

The Father of Yorkshire Terriers
Hudderfield Ben
Hudderfield Ben has always been given the honor as being the "Father of the Breed". If you look at Ben's Pedigree below, you will notice that he was the result of in-breeding. Lady is not only his Dam, but also his Grand Dam. You should also note that Lady was produced by a mother/son breeding.

Kimberly- It is very interesting!!! I have fallen so in love with these breed and wanted to learn all about the origin, so I bought the book by Joan Gordon, "The New Complete Yorkshire Terrier". This is the best book on yorkies EVER!!! Joan Gordon and her sister, Jane Bennett of Wildweir Kennels are said to have done more for the breed in the US than any other kennel. Their kennel has the all time top producing sire in the history of the breed! You would really love this book!

I have the same book:)

I think many breeders here on YT do!

I should have known!!! :D

I'll never breed, but I honestly think that this should be a "breeding 101" required read bc I really think that after you read you have a true appreciation for the standard. SOOOOOO much has gone into the standard and you just think to yourself (I did).. why would anyone want to breed unless they were truly going to better the breed? I know there are people that just want a litter or to breed their Yorkie once, but I am talking about a life dedicated to breeding Yorkies. Also I think breeders should read this simply bc it goes into the standard in depth! It was really confusing in a couple of parts, so I had to go back and re-read, but overall I just think its fascinating! I love how their purpose of being a ratter is still totally evident today in the temperments and instincts... I don't think you would be able to keep this in their "genes" for so long if it werent for responsible and careful breeders pulling the best sires and dams together to produce the best possible puppies. I was playing with mine this morning and I watch how they dig and put their little faces down to the ground like they are just going for a little vermin! Its precious!!! One thing for sure is that if you didnt appreciate all of the decades and years to hard to work to produce the standard before you read this, you will after you are finished!

breeding
 

Kimberly...I absolutely agree...what has turned me of to inbreeding is the vets.
I had a stud client sell a litter of 5 girls..4 stayed in my area, one went to NJ. This girl developed allergies so bad. The vet asks to see the pedigree, they wanted to rule out a genetic component.
These two parents were unrelated, I told the stud client and she relayed it to the vet..we faxed a pedigree. Vet was satsified..but I do suspect my stud client would be returning monies if there has been a close breeding.
It wasn't the last time either. Suddenly, I got several puppy buyers who spoke to their vets before hand about questions to ask the breeder...Great, they were doing homework. Vets wanted pedigrees.

I have not done any close inbreeding for about 10 yrs since I had a problem with inbreeding Rothby, I got liver shunt. I LOVE Rothby, but I never breed back into it with any Rothby.

I hate to see an innocent breeder blamed for every problem a dog develops..we know it isn't all our fault. In fact the NJ Yorkie with allergies was found to have a neurotic owner who had stressed it dog out..vet sent me a letter. If that dog had been inbreed the vet would have stopped looking for the problem I fear.
Best wishes

breeding
 

Another thought...the English breeders were and still are not soft hearted, they quickly put down any thing not up to snuff in the beginning. Only the best were used for breeding. I see breeders keeping ones that used to be culled as breeders and selling others for pets.

Pat I remember a recent poster incensed once she found out she had bought an inbred puppy. The vet pointed it out (I believe from her vet check) she went on and on what a bad breeder this person was that she purchased her baby from. Many (uneducated in toy breed) vets are quick to blame the breeder for anything they can and more often than not a puppy has died because of the vet not understanding the special needs of a toy breed than the hands of its breeder.

I have gone through 5 vet clinics since I moved back to portland, I had the best vet in So Cal, when I cried he cried, he called all the time and was truly concerned with any pet that entered his office. I am envious you've finally found your perfect vet. I like mine now but do I love him NOPE, do I trust him, most of the time do I trust his associates NOT AT ALL, does he dote on my babies like my past vet hell no!

For the record I have never inbred or linebred, but I have to say if I felt that I would acheive what I thought was a sound perfect breeding I wouldnt rule it out! I go by the old saying "never say never"