The Tale of the Tail
 

What's up my Yorkie peeps! It's been a while but I finally have some time to post here. As many of you know there is a debate in the United States about allowing dogs with undocked tails to show in AKC shows. I have seen them out at a couple shows. In one instance the dog was dismissed from the ring and in the other the dog was allowed to show but didn't place. I believe we have the opposite problem in Europe where American dogs can't be shown because of the docked tail.

So what do we do?

I don't have an answer, but I do side with the AKC on this one. I prefer the docked tail for many reasons. I have seen puppies getting their tails docked and its really the equivalent of a circumsion. A broken tail on an adult dog is a painful, expensive, and difficult problem to have.

As always, just my humble opinion, curious what others thoughts are.

I love the docked tail look on yorkies. I have never seen in person a yorkie with a full tail but they just look off balance to me (in pictures).

my boy has a natural tail and he is absolutely gorgeous...both of his parents are absolutely beautiful show dogs from Canada. My girl with her medium docked tail is adorable but she cannot express herself the same way with her tail. I have both so I can be objective. He does not look off balance - quite the opposite.

There is no question that there are many beautiful dogs with undocked tails. That is not really a debate. The problem is, it clearly states in the standard that the dog should have a medium docked tail. Judges are put in a tough spot. Handlers really want the AKC to change it because as it stands now they can't take clients from Europe which takes money out of their pocket

i was responding to the poster's opinion on looking unbalanced, in contrast it is quite the opposite.

Also, to keep you in the loop, since I am also a professional doula- circumcision, is also being drastically reduced with each passing year here in the USA. Not sure if you realized that but wanted to mention since you were comparing the two. Circumcision is actually painful, I have seen it done, have you? Unless it is for cultural or religious reasons, parents aren't doing as often in the US.

The US judges have to follow the AKC/YTCA show standard for the breed in this country. Europe has a different standard. Europe will not change as they have deemed docking as cruel and disfiguring -- this was done by law, no dog owners were consulted. The only change where folks could show in US and europe would mean that the US will have to change their standard for the breed.

The discussion comes up frequently at YTCA and at Roving events, but no one has a solution.

Tail docked to a medium length, however there are no DQs in the standard covering tail length. So at most the juDge can fault but shouLd not dis,miss, well at least that is my take. We Canadians have been showing natural tails in the USA for some time, both in the Yorkie breed and in the Black Russian breed. I think may happen from 2007 or 2008.

Personally I like what position the CKC takes that docked or undocked is acceptable. However that might change as more public pressure is brought to bear. At least three provincial vet associations have gone out against crop n dock.

There are a few threads on here where there were some good discussions. I personally am not convinced that docking a tail when done correctly ensues harm n pain to the puppy. Certainly it is laughable when you compare this to major surgery to spay females and neuter males. Although for males the surgery is less invasive but the health benefits quite simply are not there. Females are a different case in point.

you can if you like read up on this on my spay and neuter thread ...When or if ever the last three pages or so have the more recent research.

I think Dobs don't look like Dobs anymore nor the Rottweilers and for my breed I much prefer the docked tail. THankfully my current gal does not have a very long natural tail and I don't wince every time I come in the front door as her tail wagging does not hit each wall!!!

IN essence I have not seen the science to support irreparable damage to a puppy if you dock a tail properly.

My boy with his docked tail is equally expressive as my gal with a natural tail. Also so much easier to keep clean in the sanitary area. You learn to read your dog over time. A tucked tail is a tucked tail, a highly carried tail the same, wagging side to side and the speed of same indicates the same things. Jmho

Standards say docket and at a 45 degree angle. The longer tails don't usually have the 45 degree angle -- not that it would be impossible though I suppose.

I see more breeders braving letting the tail grow. Maybe there is a move to get in the face of the US standard by some. But until the judges get on board it will continue to be controversial it seems.

The standard actually says carried slightly higher than the back no percentage is indicated. That is to say the AKC standard. But for most dogs the tail should be carried up and he dog should show confidence int the ring, particularly terriers and all the working breeds.

Hi Gemy, I have missed you.

You have been around enough shows, if an undocked dog starts winning people are going to lose it. Especially if that dog has a big time handler.

I meant to write undocked tails in the AKC, where the standard has not been changed. America's political climate right now is kind of chaotic I don't think docking dog tails is an issue that would get much attention.

I have missed you as well. Congrats I see I think that you have two puppies. Congrats on your breeding.

We have in USA and Canada gone back n forth with this issue in both my breeds. Big time European breeders unless placing in pet homes will not dock. What can I say? We the breeders have selected over the years for type,personality, and health. Now due to politics we are forced into a situation not of our choosing.

Passions run high with the breeders, in both my breeds. And you know the old saying, get three breeders in a room and they will happily disagree on almost anyThing:)

What they are teaching and emphasizing in judges classes is the 45 degree thing. That being said it can always depend on who is teaching that section. Everyone has prejudices of course. Would be great if the US/European issues could be somehow resolved.

This is so true, I was at a judge training at Eukanuba and the 45 degree thing did come up.

Every show I've been to this topic has come up, no one has a solution. I wish we could figure this out. I have a feeling money is going to get involved and there will be pressure to change that standard. Remember the "golden rule" "He who has the gold, makes the rules"

Most of my best Yorkies have come from Europe with their full tails. I often choose not to dock puppies in hopes putting them out there as pets will help change attitudes. I do occasionally place a choice dog of my breeding with a handler, but always one with docked tail. That's just how it is now. My wish is to establish docking as an option in the standard and let the judges decide which dog looks best. In time they will learn to appreciate the undocked tail.
While making docking optional in the US standard will allow dogs from other countries to compete here, docked US dogs will still be banned abroad. When I've questioned this I've been told, without explanation, that US breeders don't want to compete with foreign dogs.

Magicgenie/ I always enjoy your honest and polite responses! Thank you for good contributions.

Hi Magic Genie! I think your right on the money with what will eventually happen. I need to catch up on the politics that was behind the anti-docking and cropping laws. As for the European attitude that Americans don't want to compete against their dogs. I just watched three weeks of the Olympics and saw Americans kick ass all over the place. Americans are not afraid to compete with anyone.

My personal opinion is that no living thing should be subjected to mutilation because we think it 'doesn't hurt that bad' or 'looks better'.

Also, I believe that we hold these thoughts because we have become used to what we see regarding docked tails which is no different, say, than being unable to age gracefully as we continue to manipulate our bodies to appear younger due to societal pressure.

Therefore, I will continue to be opposed to tail docking on the basis that it is aesthetically pleasing. Many animals, including dogs, live long and productive lives with all of their appendages in tact. I would like to see the broken tail argument become extinct as it seems a superficial excuse to continue an unacceptable practice.

Just my two cents but interesting topic, as always.

There are others who feel the way you do. You need to pass your opinion on to the AKC. At this point what the standard for the breed is is what the judges must go by. And show folks are sort of forced in to that mold if they want to be successful.

Pet owners in the US get to make the docking decision on their dogs, just like parents get to decide on circumcision and braces etc.

Respectfully, I think this is where we disagree. You are very dismissive of the broken tail argument, that you wish it would disappear. That's the problem, we at least have to agree on the facts. It's happening a lot not just in Yorkies but in other breeds as well. We actively encourage people to spay and neuter their pets to prevent future health problems and that is far more "mutilating" than a docked tail. Dealing with an adult dog with a broken tail is a painful, expensive, and unnecessary problem to have. Yorkies are small, they have small talls that are not strong like a Labrador. They can get stepped on, stuck in doors, or pulled on by a child. There are so many reasons for the docked tail that have nothing to do with aesthetics. I stand by my statement that it's like a circumcision. I am a 35 year old man and I have never once heard someone complaining about the pain of their circumcision. Or as you might call it "genital mutilation". I respectfully disagree with you and I think it would be foolish for the AKC to blindly follow Europe over a cliff.

Not dismissive of the possibility but cited incidents of broken tails are remote at best compared to the number of dogs who experince no issues during a lifetime of benefiting from an intact tail. Dogs can lose legs, claws and teeth but we do not approve of removal because we have not conditioned ourselves to find the removal of these necessary parts aesthetically pleasing.

The sole reason for the tail removal in Yorkshire terriers was for conformity in shows in the 1800s. These dogs were not working dogs even then so broken tail was not a risk. However, the Victorian era was rife with ignorance due to the times hence the trend of taxidermy and poaching and other barbaric practices which were later made extinct as our knowledge grew

The argument for broken tails, therefore, is weak on the above basis.

I believe cropping will soon be outlawed and rightly so and myself and others will celebrate humans continued enlightenment.

Neutering etc is a separate controversy and should be approached on its own merits.

No not dismissing the broken tail. I can only imagine how painful that must be when it happens and then the fix!

What I was saying was that the show breeder right now does not have choices if they are going to champion their dogs.

Europe is something that I doubt the US judges can change, but some sort of compromise so show folks could show both places would be nice! I have never experienced a broken tail, and have experienced the Yorkie docked tail all of my US life so I happen to like the look, but at the same time think the longer tail can be quite charming too - however, I am not accustomed to it.

There are more than a few show Yorkies that have made to CH with intact tails. They can be penalized butt should not be DQ. The AKC might call for standard change across the board to make it clear that undocked dogs can be shown....

I see that more and more Yorkie breeders are importing Euopean pup to strengthen their line, and many come with full tails.

It,would be great if they kept,those tails and more showed with them to help the transition of the standard.

But is the US relaxes some of their standards and allows the full tail it seems that Europe should relax some of their standards and allow docked tail to be able to sucessfully show in Europe. It needs to go both ways!

My understanding is that the disallowing of tail docking was a political/government action in Europe, not an owner/showmpeople decision.

Just came across this thread. I am pretty new to showing, about 5 years now. I personally love the look of the docked tail on a yorkie but am not opposed to those who choose not to dock. Allowing those from overseas where docking is forbidden in the US to show is not a problem for me but have seen them win and other exhibitors become livid. Also many are now importing from overseas, broadening the gene pool. Many top handlers are now specialing those with tails. I do notice the imported yorkies have darker more dramatic coloring. Anyone else see this ?

My Canadian, undocked boy has such gorgeous coloring and coat ....I have him in a training class and the trainer immediately asked me where I got him because she could see he stood out from the usual Yorkie she she sees.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I am well aware within the Yorkie show community that this is a hot combustible topic.

We are ingrained to respect the standard and to uphold it. I think that the change in Europe was forced upon the breeders and that galls us. As I have repetively said I believe it should be breeder choice.

With my breed it is not quite as corrosive, but it is interesting to note that if you want to show in Russia the home country for my breed the tails will be docked..

Yep. I've seen that. I've been told that it's because that over in Europe they are very heavy on breeding for the coat. I can't blame them because doesn't the standard say that the coat is most important? Anyways, as a result European yorkies tend to have darker coloring, and a thicker and just more of a coat but still maintain the silky texture. It's something that is quite noticeable. If you put a typical North American yorkie beside a European yorkie, you'd very easily be able to tell them apart even if you don't have a good eye for differences. The darker coloring and an amazing coat is a dead giveaway. And I think there's probably lots of other differences. Some might be subtle and you'd need a good eye to notice. Didn't mean to get off topic of the thread, I just wanted to let you know that what you're seeing is definitely there.