Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4501568)

Those full tails should go over like a lead balloon on this board.

PS I happen to like the long tails, but there's this Nancy person on here who will soon come by to re-educate you.:)

Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4501568)

Those full tails should go over like a lead balloon on this board.

PS I happen to like the long tails, but there's this Nancy person on here who will soon come by to re-educate you.:)

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502277)

You are all so very welcome :)

The more you see these full tails the more you get used to them.
I personally like them more if they are balanced with the neck.
They give a nice outline.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 4502256)

I don't know what I have done to offend you, I feel like you keep picking on me. I asked you a simple question, on another thread, "Do you take the length and width into account when you breed a dog?" I still don't have a clue what's wrong with that question. So many of your answers to me are sarcastic, or you will say things like, "duh". You accused me of trying to discredit you after that question, yet I feel like that's what you are trying to do to me time and time again.


Also, you are wrong about my dislike for long tails, I didn't like a docked tail until I saw enough pictures on Yorkietalk, now I think both are fine, but this isn't about beauty for me. I've had dogs from the pound most of my life and they all had long tails. I just think a breeder should follow standard that is my opinion, but if your heart tells you something else, then you should follow your heart, and there will be people who think you are wrong or won't allow you into their club, but if you have made the choice for the right reasons, those things won't bother you.

Mike, thanks for the video, those dogs are gorgeous so are their tails, if the issue were based entirely on cosmetics or beauty, my personal bias is for an undocked tail after see that video!

Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4502361)

Please, Nancy, can we just let it go? We've disagreed on lots of things on this board going back many years. I'm sure there were times I was wrong. I've tried to grow and learn here. Surely there must have been times you were wrong as well. This latest clash is just your passion to defend an old standard, and mine to think ahead to a time the change will likely be forced on us by law.
I'm sincerely happy you found the Yorkies in Mike's videos beautiful. I know some hard core traditionalists who would be too distracted by the tails to see how pretty the dogs are.
Mike, the videos are stunning. I also enjoyed the literature you and many others posted on the tail docking thread.
Happy Halloween everyone!:)

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502372)

I am not a breeder either... :)



It means that the front end is in complete harmony with the rear end.
The tail is proportionate to the neck.

I will try to explain.
Since tail docking was banned in many European countries, breeders had to deal with 2 new challenges :

1. The shape
and
2. the length of the undocked tails.
(Also the tail set but this was already an issue.)

The standard asks for the tail :

This describes all 3 concerns.
Length, shape AND position of the tail (tail set).
It also gives us a hint about balance appearance - outline.

The straight and long undocked tail carried a little higher than the level of the back (ie 45 degrees) gives an unpleasant to the eye appearance resembling a much longer dog.
A straight as possible and a bit short tail, in the correct position accompanied with the correct croup looks like the ideal according to the standard.

For 100+ years we were breeding dogs with docked tails, unable to know what was the shape or the length of them. We didn't care. Now we have to deal with it. It will take time and commitment to breed the correct shape and length.

Where are we at the moment?

Since many excellent dogs have a curly tail (straight at the beginning and then curved forward) a new type is starting to grow into breeders. This "new" type of yorkies have their tails carried higher than 45 degrees (even 90 degrees) giving them a more compact appearance.

When this type of tail is accompanied with a well laid back shoulder, level topline and compact proportions, it gives a pleasing to the eye appearance, even though its a bit off standard.

Sometimes though, the tail set and the curve of the tail are so extreme that the tail almost touches the back. The curve of the tail is apparent in the first few inches. This effect hides the topline, the croup, upsets the overall outline and often is accompanied with a very long neck, resembling a completely different breed.

Here is a link of the FCI World Dog Show 2014 held in Helsinki.

WDS Yorkshire Terriers - YouTube

You can see the different types of tails that I am referring to.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 4502377)

I would love to let it go, I thought we had a better understanding the other day. I have been wrong about some things, no doubt. I personally would hate to see breeders change due to force because I don't see this as any type of mistreatment. I would hope they would change because the Yorkie is no longer bred to be a ratter and work in tunnels, and a full tail poses no risk to them, and also the fact that the tail is gorgeous and pet buyers will accept it. I would like to help initiate a change that won't leave breeders feeling resentful and powerless.

The dogs are gorgeous, but I was surprised at how short their natural tails were. I see a lot of pet pictures and many have full tails and the length of those tails varies greatly, with some tails as long as their backs. That's why I was asking you if you took the tails length and width into consideration when breeding. If this is a rude question, then you'll have to explain why it's rude.

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502390)

Maybe this drawing will help :)

No1 is the ideal.
Natural short, carried at 45 degrees and as straight as possible.
But very hard to find

No2 is curled and carried at 90 degrees angle

No3 has the correct carriage, is straight but is too long

No4 is curled and carried more than 90 degrees, touching the back

No5 is a complete different breed :eek:

No6 has the correct carriage, is curled and is too long.

Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4502392)

Not at all rude, a very good question. I do not consider these things when making a decision to dock or not because I still do breed mostly docked dogs with the docked tail in mind. I make decisions not to dock based on other things, such as a puppy is already out of conformation for some other fault such as too much white on the chest, or looks too tiny to grow to standard size. I can see it must be necessary to consider tail length and width in breeding decisions when the standard calls for the full tail. This is not possible when breeding docked dogs.
I do not consider docking cruel and I will be very sad if it ever becomes a legal issue. Meanwhile, I want to appreciate any beautiful Yorkshire Terrier and not be distracted by tail length.:)

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 4502395)

Very interesting thank you. Would you say that these opinions are accepted by the majority? I can see why breeders might be hesitant to start breeding for tail, this sounds even more difficult than I initially thought, but Yorkie breeders seem to love a challenge.

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502408)

Yorkies in European shows have these variations.
No1 is very hard to find.
Most of them are no2 and no4.
Also you can see a few no5.

It is difficult, but I think it can be done as long as we decide the kind of yorkie that we want. After all no one knows how a yorkie should look like with his full tail. We are all shaping in our minds the picture of the ideal based on what we see and its up to us to decide how this will evolve.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 4502399)

Oh, I thought you didn't dock most of your dogs, I didn't realize you dock some. Did you read Mikes thoughts about his preferences towards certain tails, do you have an opinion on that?

Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4502415)

I dock most of my puppies, always have. Mike is right that it will take some time to get the breeding right to consistently get the most pleasing tail length and carriage. All the more reason to be looking ahead, IMO, and find a way to work with this before it gets forced on us.

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502408)

Yorkies in European shows have these variations.
No1 is very hard to find.
Most of them are no2 and no4.
Also you can see a few no5.

It is difficult, but I think it can be done as long as we decide the kind of yorkie that we want. After all no one knows how a yorkie should look like with his full tail. We are all shaping in our minds the picture of the ideal based on what we see and its up to us to decide how this will evolve.

Originally Posted by Nancy1999 (Post 4502411)

Thanks Mike, you've really taught me a tail of a lot!

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly (Post 4502432)

I'm no breeder, love reading your posts and illustrations but don't understand why having dogs with full-length tails is any different than when docking was allowed. Even with docked tails, you can see easily see incorrect tail set, can't you? How did not docking change tail set?

Originally Posted by Mike1975 (Post 4502506)

I forgot to mention another important factor that contributes to the carriage of tail. That is temperament. It is impossible to have a dog as described in the standard with its tail held a little higher than the level of the back.
A dog with a terrier temperament, alert and spirited would have its tail held like a flag.

Another factor that skipped my mind, is the "plenty of hair" requirement. Often these hairs add confusion in the actual length of the tail. Also the extra weight of these hairs force the tail to bend and touch the back.

In my mind the ideal type of tail is that of Juliana (aka ROYAL PRECIOUS JP'S F4 JULIANA, bred by Yoshiko Obana and handled by Sergio Amien).
But that is of course personal preference. :)

Originally Posted by magicgenie (Post 4502576)

Thanks, Mike, I agree US and Canadian Yorkies are indeed very prominent in European pedigrees. I was referring to their absence from competition in Europe. I didn't know Japan was FCI. Here we have AKC but abroad there are federations of kennel clubs and I get confused about how they're grouped.