Originally Posted by tegamom1 (Post 2769710)

Dee, it certainly wasn't anyone's intent to make you angry or upset. We all have our preferences as to what we choose to do. I appreciate your answering some of our questions. Is it one point per each dog entered?

I must say that I am also disappointed when people who have not shown that often in AKC make assumptions that all the shows are political and not fun or present a "family atmosphere". Nothing could be farther from the truth. If you notice when watching the big dog shows on Animal Planet, the large number of dogs in the group rings that are owner handled or breeder, owner, handled. It's wonderful, and at shows, the competition is fierce IN the ring, outside the ring, it's hey, can I borrow a bow, would you throw a topknot in for me, where are we going for dinner...I'm hungry....lol

I don't know anyone who doesn't feel they have a chance to win with they walk their dog in the ring. They wouldn't be doing it if they did. If a dog is well groomed and presented well, anyone can win

Just after the new DQ rule came out, there were a couple of judges that DQ'd a puppy and I do mean only a couple. Yes, there are dogs that get DQ'd now and then and most of the time, there is a reason for it and again, it doesn't happen that often, considering the number of AKC shows that are held every day/week.

My kids loved going to the shows with me! They loved the dogs and all the excitement and loved watching mommy (and even sometimes daddy) win! They're all grown up now, but a couple of them are really looking forward to going to the specialty in Dallas with me next month. It's a day at the dog show, win or lose..it's a pleasure and something we enjoy doing.

I only show AKC, that's my preference and yes, I do think it's more valuable, again, my opinion.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 2770095)

That is correct. if you go into the UKC ring with a brush or comb even in your pocket, you will be excused from the ring. They DO check the dogs for products. The judges will literally pick up the coat of a long haired dog and run their hands thru it checking for products. I was at a show last year when a judge took a topknot down. there are of course, discreet little ways to do things but you better not get caught. I got called on the carpet this past Spring for flat ironing my dog. It was called excessive grooming. Our dogs usually go into the ring with only a bath of shampoo and conditioner. people may say it is easier to finish in UKC but one thing about it, it is not a beauty contest and if your dog wins, it wins on it's own merit. Not vecause it is all prettied up or died or anything. the judges don't have to stand at the table and wait while the handler brushes her dog again before the go round. That is so irritating when I watch the big AKC shows.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 2770098)

Tina, I showed under two judges Saturday that actually checked the toy dogs for LP while they were doing the hands over on the table. First time I have ever seen that and I asked my judge if that was what she was doing and I think it was great. Of course, they always check for structure, front end, hips, shoulders and all that, but to actually see a judge check for LP was amazing. All the toy dogs got checked.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2770168)

That's great, but AKC judges check for LP most of the time. However, if the judge is not a vet, they cannot determine what grade level LP the dog has and we all know that LP can be caused by injury. When they're going over the the dogs they are not only checking how the dog is put together (bone structure), but also checking for anomolies, leg length to see if there has been any surgical repair, hip dysplasia, etc.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2770145)

The old school for handling is that you never brush a dog on the table, I know many do it today. I was taught it's a no, no.....incorrect ring etiquette to keep the judge waiting. It's fruitless anyway. You put the dog on the floor and it shakes, so your brushing efforts go out the window. But, on the other hand the brush is put on the table for the judge to use, so they can pull up the coat and watch it drop, judging for correct texture.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2770168)

That's great, but AKC judges check for LP most of the time. However, if the judge is not a vet, they cannot determine what grade level LP the dog has and we all know that LP can be caused by injury. When they're going over the the dogs they are not only checking how the dog is put together (bone structure), but also checking for anomolies, leg length to see if there has been any surgical repair, hip dysplasia, etc.

Originally Posted by kalina82 (Post 2770243)

If a dog has had a surgical repair for something accidental like a fracture repair does that matter?

I know of a show breeder who has a yorkie who fractured her leg as a puppy. the surgeon i worked for repaired it and it looked wonderful after it healed. The breeder gave the surgeon the very next ribbon she won after surgery. I do not think she went on to champion though. do you think the fracture repair had anything to do with it?

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 2770250)

I have never seen the AKC judges check for LP unless I was so nervous when my dog was on the table, I just wasn't aware. That is a huge possibility. Mary, I saw the darndest thing Saturday. There is a fairly new breed (I think) called Rusky. It shows in the companion group and looks like a larger out of standard chi with scraggly hair. (Sorry if anyone has one LOL) Anyway the same lady had three in the ring and one of them hopped around on three legs. She had her daughters showing two of them and the judge even asked her to take the little hopping one aroundd instead of her daughters. There was not a sound in the show area as everyone stood up and watched the little dog. I first thought it was just acting up as i think it was a puppy. Then the longer it went on, the worse it got to the point of hopping on three legs. I felt so bad for the little dog. of course it got DQ'd but I still don't know if it was hurt or just acting up.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 2770383)

This has been very interesting. I've been showing in both venues for 3 years. Depending on the competition in your area it can be very easy to finish an UKC champion. All you need is a dog of each sex where one is clearly a better speciman of the breed and you can finish in 3 shows, I know I've done it. I've also taken in my boy and have beaten AKC champions. I've seen lousy dogs in the UKC ring and I've seen Westminster winners in the UKC ring. It is good practice and less intimidating than AKC for a beginner.
AKC can be great fun but it does take a while to make friends and fit in. I guess it's like anywhere else that there is competition. Some of the judges in UKC are very educated, some judge in both venues like Sharon Griffin, and some are long time breeders like Joyce Lea-Hanson whose foundation goes back to England. Some like a couple of judges in AKC don't have a clue and would even put up a dog with sickle hock because it has a nice coat. I've seen excellence and crap in both but I do know that the AKC title is harder to obtain by far and is the most coveted title in the world.
I guess in the end it just depends on your goals and the assets that are available to you. As far as the sale of pups are concerned I don't think it makes a ton of difference to pet owners. UKC champions are listed as U champions on most of the pedigrees that I've seen. The quality of the pup is determined by the genes that are are given by the dam and sire and the prepotency of those parents for the desired traits. A title is desirable and a definite goal for me but it doesn't show the dog's genotype, it would be simpler if it did.

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2770404)

Thanks Tami, You're ability to answer some questions from both sides of the fence. I don't think that I'll ever compete in UKC, but it's nice info to know

Other than one easier than the other to obtain a title than the other...Judges are judges and you have good ones and bad ones.....As you say, some only look at the coat.....which can cover a multitude of faults. A bad dog can Champion in any venue if one knows what judges to present their dogs too.

The one thing I may not agree with you is pet buyers not caring whether their are Championships in the background of a pup. Most of my families are pretty savy about pedigrees and dogs and come to me for a pet, because of their pedigree and their long line of Champions in their background.

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk (Post 2770419)

Maybe it's the current economy but I have 2 boys, one is Ch. sired and one Ch. grandsired and it's just not helping me find them homes at all. Also with this economy I think we'll find that if you can't afford to show in both venues AKC will end up being the preference. With money tight I just don't feel a need to show Ace in UKC. I have to concentrate my resources towards getting him finished in AKC. I have no doubt he could be finished in UKC within a weekend so it's not worth the money to me right now.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 2770581)

mary, it does depend on the region you live in. I have called about puppies and asked what the pedigree is and people don't even know what I am talking about. And I have noticed a lot of my buyers when I go to rattling off the champions and pedigrees and etc, they will stop me and say, "we don't want a show dog and all that means nothing to usm,, we just want a nice healthy dog'. there are some show people in my area now that for the past year or so have found it impossible to move their champion sired or champion damed pups. I agree with Tami that having an AKC champion is the goal I have and most everyone I know but I will never forget where I came from and where I started from. And I will never say that my UKC titles mean nothing to me. I worked hard for them.

Originally Posted by Sbyork (Post 2770592)

I agree with everyone here. After 29yrs of AKC showing you have to have a dedication and want to stay with it, BUT an AKC Championship is the Gold standard. Through the years I have seen many people thinking they can buy a dog and go in and win their first show, they fail too and end up leaving AKC shows. I think AKC says that something like 80% of newbies are gone before a year is out, They fail to understand the work and dedication it takes. Most of these other clubs have been started out of a need to give people a chance to show without the need to compete with the best of the best AKC.
Stick with AKC, The experience of an AKC Championship is priceless!
Try to find a mentor(AKC has a new program) and have fun!:):aimeeyork

Sparkling Blu Yorkies

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2769673)

It's tough getting Majors out here too. I've heard through the grapevine from reliable sources that AKC has instructed judges to not cross over points and tp put up handlers. They feel that not crossing over points will draw more entries and putting up handlers is where their money is.

Originally Posted by topknot (Post 2767786)

I have found that UKC is not available in all states, so not many opportunities to show, especially in my state. For me there is only 1 UKC show in my state - actually close enough to go to, which is still awhile away. I think that UKC may be a good place to practice, but is not as well recognized or prestigous as AKC. UKC has made strides, from what I hear, in the last few years. If there were a UKC show near me, I would probably go to get my dogs experience and have fun. AKC Matches are also a great place to gain experience. Check with your clubs to find out when they will have one.

For me, I show AKC. JMO - It is also a lot harder to gain an AKC championship than UKC. I know someone that was able to get a UKC champion on her dog in one weekend. That cannot happen with AKC, unless a Speciality is attached within that weekend and still very rare! You have to have a lot of dogs entered to get majors - for AKC. To get majors - you need a lot of dogs entered to compete against and right now many of the majors have been breaking. So it is so much harder to get those AKC championships. But boy, when you get them - they are so celebrated. You can have fun at AKC shows too and we do!

Originally Posted by Sbyork (Post 2775269)

AkC has been trying for years to get rid of BOWs They say there are too many cheap Champions out there and to a point I have to agree. I have a friend who finished a boy FAST and he never defeated another dog from his own sex! If there was no BOWs he would have taken a much longer time to finish.
Yeah, majors are hard to find BUT remember each year the points change based on the number of dogs showing the last 3 years.
As far as handlers go, its their business, when a Breeder/owner/handler losses it easy to say the judge was political, BUT remember if the handler doesn't win he won't have any dogs to show. A handler Always presents a dog to its BEST, Grooming is perfect, he knows his dogs faults as well as yours. It called being professional.
A GREAT seminar to attend is George Alston's he has the inside on the handlers and why a Breeder/owner/handler really has the advantage. He also wrote a book, but if you can attend a seminar you will be blown away! He made me cry when I first took his class and I had been showing 20 yrs and had several Best in Shows, BUT I learned.

SPARKLING BLU YORKIES:animal-pa

Originally Posted by cj125 (Post 2775239)

This is a great thread! :thumbup: I really love to hear about all the details of showing and the breeder's point of view.

Another thread had the points broken down - which I printed out so that I could refer to it :p (senior moments)

Mary, could you please explain what "cross over points" and "to put up a handler" means?

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2775957)

I understand both sides of this. As far as BOW being a cheap win.....I'm not sure if I agree. I know that in Texas, where the point system is pretty tough....Majors are usually in Bitches from January through August, for some reason or another the males aren't brought out until August. As far as not beating other males, that isn't entirely true, more times than not the number of dogs is just under a Major.....so dogs are defeated.

Handlers are Professional, but, as you and I know they can finish a dead cat and do take dogs in that probably shouldn't even be shown. I've beat handlers and I don't have a problem losing to them, as long as they have the better dog. But, when you have a judge that doesn't base their decision on anything other than the handler, then that's a bit hard to swallow.

Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 2776006)

Ditto Mary! I have found it lately that judges haven't been crossing over the majors so BOW's isn't a cheap win. We as owner/breder/exhibitors have to take in the best dog against a handler in my opinion but then again I've beaten the handlers and have lost. It happens because it is "their" job not mine and unfortunately some judges will just put up handlers.
I also didn't know about UKC until I was probably in my 4th year showing AKC and I still prefer AKC.
Anyway that is my 2 cents LOL

Donna

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2776003)

SCHEDULE OF POINTS FOR DIVISION 7 - EFFECTIVE MAY 13, 2009
Division 7 is comprised of: Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas.
Major Major Major
1 POINT 2 POINTS 3 POINTS 4 POINTS 5 POINTS
Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches

2 2 6 7 9 11 11 13 15 17
So, at any given show you might have a Major in both Dog's and Bitches. But, most of the time you may have a Major in one sex only. But, the judge has the option of awarding Best Of Winners to the Winners Dog or Bitch that didn't have the Major, thus crossing over the points and giving it the Major anyway.

Now as far as putting up a handler. Well handlers, being that is their job, do travel all over the country, judges get to know them. Yes, the handlers are professional. However, some judges are political and will automatically give the points to the dog that the handler is handling, based on who the handler is.

Originally Posted by Sugar's Mom (Post 2776070)

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This is what I have been saying the whole time. yes, they can be beat but it hardly ever happens. especially with some judges and even some shows are well known to be "handler shows".

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2776090)

Dee,

I don't agree with you. I've beaten handlers alot. After awhile your grooming, handling and presentation skills get as good as theirs. You know your dogs faults and quirks, you find their buttons (and each dog is different). You go in the ring knowing you've got the best dog there. And in defense of handlers, they are willing to help you, all you need to do is ask..... And as others have said, that AKC Championship Title is still the most coveted. The competition is tough, but nothing worth getting is easy.

Originally Posted by Brooklynn (Post 2776095)

I have to agree again! I went to NY to the biggest toy show in the US and beat a number of handlers :) I've learned from the handlers themselves, like Mary said just ask and most are willing to help and share some knowledge. I've been lucky to have some top handlers help me and give me tips, show me things ect....
I think I've gotten to be just as good but of course I'm still learning and gaining knowledge all the time :)

Donna

Originally Posted by Mardelin (Post 2776103)

Donna,

at times I'd prefer to be in the ring with handlers, you get a chance to watch first hand and pick up some skills.