I really doubt that TOTW in a 15%ish fat form triggered Jackson's pancreatitis because there were so many other things he was getting that are much more likely the culprit. Certain people foods and lots of higher protein things like bully sticks would make me much more nervous than TOTW in a healthy dog.

And you can feed just the right thing and your pup can still get an angry pancreas, so I wouldn't worry too much about kibble triggering it unless it isn't lower fat. Protein also stimulates the pancreas, so JMHO I think it's best to be careful about how much is given. Nobody knows for sure what can set it off...

I'm not a fan of this food, but that could be said about a lot of foods. That said, I wouldn't stop feeding over just pancreas concerns. I'd email the company and ask what their maximum fat % and protein % is in the ones you feed because the minimum % is given.

^^I agree.

I would be much more concerned about what your pup is eating, if anything, in addition to the TOTW kibble.

I don't believe that Jackson got pancreatitis from his "dog diet" at all.
This came about because he was eating way too many fatty human foods.
He was doing fantastic on his diet and had he just never eaten too much
fatty human junk food, I really don't believe we'd be dealing with this problem.

I still believe in grain-free because I don't feel dogs NEED grains. I don't
think they are necessarily harmful, either, but I just don't think it's a
necessity. For the time being, because we are still dealing with getting him
better, I am feeding the veterinary RX food Purina E/N. However the vet
told me he does not have to be on this forever. I have found a lot of foods
that seem to be comparable. He will not be on RX food forever unless it's
an absolute necessity for him to survive and thrive.

Yes, now, I will have to be very careful about his diet. But I don't believe a
healthy dog needs to be on a super low fat, super low protein diet either.

And actually, TOTW Sierra is in the low spectrum of things and I wouldn't go
any lower than that for a healthy dog (25% protein, 15% fat). But I also
probably wouldn't go higher than 31% or so. I think ingredients are more
important than just actual numbers.

Thank you, lol. You posted before me! :D

Thanks everyone:)
I am calming down.
It just seems like so little is know about pancreatitis.
Then there is the high protein vs low protein debates.
I was reading on the internet and found something that said small dogs should not eat over 22% protein.
The only foods I know like that are NB LID diets.
All the small dog formulas (Solid Gold, Wellness, ...) have about 28% fat.
Organic does not have anything to do with the protein and fat levels.
One article even said don't bother with organic for your dog (scare tactic).
:confused::confused::confused:
I feel like a bobble head today-LOL:)

You will find info for and against everything out there. Pay closer attention to the source of information. Very little of what you find on the internet is from "real" experts in nutrition. Most are self-proclaimed experts.

LOL!! Calm, calm *breathe*

Believe me, it's a lot to take in. I've felt like a bobble head too.

The thing is, I don't think you can read one thing and take it as a fact. Every dog is different and you have to just see what your individual dog does best on. There's no hard-fast rule for specific breeds or dogs in general.

And 28% fat? I've never seen fat that high on those foods. Did you mean protein?

And yeah, personally, I wouldn't really bother with organics when it comes to dog food -- sometimes I think it's a load of crap when it comes to people food, too.

I think dog food in general started as one big scare tactic. Dog food in kibble form did not really become mainstream until the 1950's when dog food companies decided to make ads saying "human food is bad for your dogs!" etc, etc, and scared people into feeding kibble.

Organic isn't legally defined for pet food companies, so I don't bother with it for my dogs.

Totally untrue that small dogs shouldn't have more than 22% protein. Also untrue that low protein foods are bad. High protein doesn't cause kidney damage, but it does have to be metabolized and the kidneys have to eliminate the excess nitrogen. So I choose not to put extra stress on my pups' liver and kidneys. Some think it's no big thing. Personal preference.

I believe all Yorkies should be on low fat diets and Dr. Remillard (BC nutritionist) leans towards lower fat food for Yorkies. They are prone to pancreas issues. I won't take the risk of feeding high fat. Not necessary and not safe IMO.

What is the fat % range that Dr. R recommends for Yorkies?

Double Post

Cathy might know and it will vary a bit when dealing with other health conditions (like L/D is higher is fat, but still a good choice for liver issues, etc.).

Ellie's homecooked diet was 18% (still considered low). After a couple bouts of pancreatitis and some GI issues, it went down to 1% fat. It varies so much by pup that that is hard to answer (would be a good question for her). I know she liked the adult chicken recipe (11% fat) on her site for Cathy's Teddy Bumpkins with no hx of pancreas issues. Could help prevent an issue in the future...

Also, when it's homecooked, you know the exact %. When it's kibble, you just get the minimum %.

Sorry ment 28% protein on most "small dog" kibbles bags.

I'm going to contact the manufacturer of my boys' kibble and try to find out the maximum fat percentage. We'll see if they respond.

From my understanding, it was not the high protein per se, it was that high fat usually goes with high protein, but bully sticks are 1.5% fat which isn't considered high fat. Now I understand that once a diagnosis is made, everything becomes critical, but it sounds like you think bully sticks can cause pancreatitis or play a large role in it? Have you read anything scientific that tells more about the connection between bully sticks and pancreatitis? Again, I don’t consider all bully sticks equal, some are so soft a dog can eat them in one night and I would consider these more as a treat or food source than a chewing aid. While others are truly a chewing stick, and very little is consumed each day.

Dr. R recommended that I feed Teddy her standard adult recipe for chicken, brown rice, and vegetables for dogs. That diet is 11% fat. Teddy has had no digestive issues but we are feeding that for pancreatitis prevention because I told Dr. R I believe the breed is predisposed and she agreed that it was a good idea to lower the fat. However, I recently asked Dr. R for a kibble recommendation for Teddy as a back up, and she recommended a 16% fat kibble. Between the two foods, Teddy will average probably 14% assuming I use kibble often which I will likely not do.

She also formulated a diet for Barney, it is 23% protein, 3% fat after his second pancreatitis attack. He was on 25% protein, 15% fat after the first pancreatitis attack at age 5. He ate treats, etc. However, his cases of pancreatitis were very mild in comparison to Jackson who is still on fluids 8 or 9 days into this. If Jackson were mine, he would be on no more than 10-12% fat for the rest of his life, he'd be eating carbohydrates and he'd be eating 22-25% protein. He would not be allowed to have bullies, or any other treats aside from vegetables or chicken breast etc.

Daisy is formulated differently than my boys. She has no problem with higher fat, however Dr. R formuated her diet at 5% fat.

This is where I am at right now. I am not planning on feeding him a food with higher fat than 10%, honestly. I've found quite a few that could possibly fit the bill.

I will be searching for some kind of chew that is safe for him in the future. I will consult with this vet as well as his original vet and if I can find a certified nutritionist, I will be doing this as well.

Just to be clear, he was on IV fluids from Sunday afternoon-Monday evening. He was not on fluids Tuesday-Thursday. Was given sub-q fluids Thursday, Friday and yesterday (Sunday).

Great on finding a food above. Be careful though, it is not known all ingredients that can trigger pancreatitis.

I did understand your posts about fluids, but whether they are on IV or subc, I have never seen this long of a timeline for pancreatitis fluids based on my very limited experience. First time with my dog was a 4 day hospitalization with 48 hours NPO on IV and the rest was small meals. Second issue, only subc fluids given for management at home. That's what I meant - he is still getting fluids over the course of a week or so, and I've never heard of that.

Thanks! For all your help throughout this. I wouldn't know what's "normal" or what's not as I've never been through anything like this before. But the vet basically told me he was doing this as a preventative measure so that he didn't end up back in the hospital later.

I will research everything thoroughly before making a decision for sure. Alot of senior and weight management foods seem good. Even though Natura Pets was bought out by P&G, California Natural and Innova have a few good formulas.

Nancy (don't feel like quoting),

This is an older text, but:

"Prevent Stimulation of Pancreatic Secretion

Restrict oral intake to lace the pancrea at "rest."
Nothing per os usually is required ofr 3-4 days or longer. Food (especially fats and proteins) stimulates pancreatic secretion through choleccystokinin (CCK) release. Even fluids can stimulate pancreatic secretion through gastric distension and release of gastrin."

Saunders Manual of Small Animal Practice
Birchard and Sherding
Copyright 1994

This isn't something I've researched yet, but I do have serious hesitations about giving pancreatitis prone dogs high protein snacks. The above is talking about what to do right after an episode, but still if I know it stimulates pancreatic secretions, I'm not going to let a pancreatitis prone pup chew on it for an hour a day. I think it's a question best posed to a vet or vet nutritionist though.

As for healthy dogs being restricted on protein to protect the pancreas, not sure that that is necessary. I'd be more concerned about the overworking of the liver and kidneys. But still not going to let a healthy dog chew on straight protein for long periods. Actually, with some of these bullies that can be swallowed, I'm sure excessive intake is unbalancing the cal/phos ratio in the food.

Since we have no idea about every food that can trigger an issue, I'd so hard to say. Will be going to pubmed to see what I can find though.

My healthy pup isn't allowed to chew on high protein snacks all day. It's not because I'm concerned about his pancreas, but that I think in general protein or protein and fat alone in the form of a treat can become problematic quickly. I don't believe these are healthy snacks, so we avoid them.

But I may have misworded my other post if I said I have scientific evidence that says high protein foods do trigger a pancreas issue. I see it as being theoretically possible.

Thanks Ellie May, I appreciate your help with this.

Something interesting about protein/phosphorus/kidneys:
PetDiets

Maintenance level of protein is like 20-25% (anywhere from 15-30% seems to be considered acceptable in one case or another).