I've now deleted the posts where there is snark/making-fun-of type comments of what this thread is about. You should not apologize or feel bad for posting about DFA -- you are more than welcome to do so. Many people here use and appreciate DFA, and some feel the opposite -- all opinions are welcome as long as people be respectful about it.

You should always feel welcome to post any/all links that you find interesting - truly! I'm sure we could all learn something from whatever someone else may be interested in. No one here wishes you to feel disparaged for what you posted, and I'm sorry you feel this way. In some ways, some people were trying to lend some humor to an often heated topic - but it came to point where it went too far and went from humorous to snarkiness...and we don't want to support that. Humor is fine, but being snarky/sarcastic is just another way to display disdain and YT tries to discourage that as it does hurt the conversation.

Hopefully the discussion can continue to be interesting and helpful...

Our German Shepherd's name was Christy too :). No, she wasn't receiving birth control shots. She had an emergency spay when she was young and got pregnant. We just didn't know any better back in those days, and let her run around outside unattended--there were no leash laws back in those days. She was eating Purina Dog Chow--it was all you could get at the supermarket in a small town. She would have died around 1972, I think.

I'm a bit surprised the one calling names was not deleted. I don't think anyone was laughing at the op just trying to add humor to something that normally makes people cringe and get angry.

Bumping this just because.

forget it...the whole thing is ..well, just is.

call me speechless this morning

In response to this question, I have been referred to board certified specialists MANY times over the years. The vets I use are very aware of their limitations with certain conditions and are professionals who have no problem admitting they cannot handle everything. They also know that I am a willing consumer/pet owner who does not withhold specialized care when needed. They always refer me as necessary....unfortunately I have had many pups with serious conditions. I currently have three of my personal pups on special diets and meds for serious, potentially fatal conditions. I also have another who had liver shunt surgery. They are doing well I believe because I listened to my vet and took them to a specialist.
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I consider myself the average pet owner... these words of yours baffle me:

Please try and understand many here do not have the time, facilities and experience to spend hours researching literature and writing extensive analyses and comments. We are dog moms and dads who just want the best for our dogs, and we live on ground level not in ivory towers.

I don't really understand this. I am a dog mom who wants the best and I believe that I live on the ground level. I don't have the time for all the reading and posting and all...I have said that many times. I rely on my vets for this advice which is my point about DFA....I don't care for his advice because I prefer listening to vet professionals for my pups. That's all. For me, it is a matter of priorities. I do for my pups what I would do for myself and bust my backside to afford it...I am not a wealthy woman living in an ivory tower .. I am a commoner who just does her level best to go the extra mile for my pups. They don't choose to live here, I choose to have them and I feel I owe it to them to give them the best. Does that make me an enemy here? Apparently, as you have name called all over the place accusing me of being a shark and engaging is something that did. not. happen. No one attacked the OP. We just found some humor where we felt it was needed. AND I apologized to the OP...it was NEVER my intent to attack her at. all.

It's now deleted. Btw just fyi, "name calling" isn't even part of YT's rules and hasn't been for quite a long while now, mostly bc people don't seem to understand what it is - someone would say "Boo" and it would be reported as name calling. I didn't really view the "sharks" comment as name calling, I viewed it as an analogy toward some of the off-tone humor that was occurring within a group of people.

Let me go on this morning to share an experience that might make sense for those of you with questions about board certified specialists.

I had a foster who was surrendered to rescue by his owners. He had a fractured leg...the injury had occurred six months previously. :( His owners didn't have the money to go to a surgeon and they went shopping for a vet who would be less expensive. (I know all of this because they told me). They found a vet who did the surgery but the bone did not heal and after six long months, they decided to surrernder him. :( His bone was broken in half. Horrifying to me. Anyway....I took him to a boarded specialist who informed me that what the previous vet had done was not ever going to work.....the owners had spent $800 on that surgery!!! The vet had put a pin in it and it was a large bone that would rotate with that pin in it and never mend. Was it criminal? I think so, but vets do this stuff all the time to try to help people when in fact they really are not helping the poor pets....or the owners. Fortunately the leg was saved, but by that time, he needed bone grafts, plates and pins....and lengthy crate rest.

I get that people don't have money for expensive condtions/surgeries...that is why I often suggest that they get pet insurance. We have it for ourselves, why not for our pets? I think most of us on this forum feel strongly that our pets are our children...no I don't think human, but they are important to us.

That was an example about boarded vets.....and imo if you have a pup who has a medical condition for whom a rx diet won't work, it is best to have a specialist. The first time I went to a nutritionist was years ago with a pup in renal failure...he also had pancreatitis. So none of the diets were good for him...one would throw the pancreatitis off...the other would throw the kidneys off. I consulted at Texas A&M with a vet nutritionist and started home cooking for him. He enjoyed his food and did well on it until it was simply time for him to leave me. :( SO...this is why I promote vet nutritionsists.. I am not merely putting someone down for being a dentist. I just firmly believe in going to specialists for my pups just as I would for myself. As Pstinard said, I would not go to a dentist for nutrition advice and I won't for my pups.

Great post, thanks for sharing this.

I feel like I should clarify a little about humor and why some posts were deleted. Honestly, the first couple pages of humor were totally fine and okay and intended to be fun (from what I can tell, anyway). As it kept going on a little too far, though, it then seemed appropriate to just go ahead and delete all post that were "off topic" -- so that's why I went back to page 1 and deleted *all* of them together. In other words, this does *not* mean that all of the posts were deleted was bc they were inappropriate...not at all; many of them were just in good humor, very clearly.

Maybe an example too? When Phil said "food fight!" -- that was funny and was very clearly meant to add a little levity to an often heavy subject here. But if/when someone later uses humor disguised as disdain...that's when we start getting into the arena where humor is going to disparage rather than just be funny and lighthearted. (Edited later to clarify: and I don't mean here that it was Phil who went "off-tone" w/ the humor; was just using his perfectly funny comment "food fight" as a good example of what is truly funny. :))

Humor is good / okay!!!! If it kinda takes over a thread, derails it, and/or starts to head into some off-tone area...then, well...we may need to clean up the thread a bit. And that was the case here, that's all :). No huge deal here.

I think sometimes, too, that maybe some folks don't realize when their humor may come off as disparaging...? I think sometimes that is confusing for people. And that's understandable to a certain point. Hopefully, it's not intended to be off-color...but sometimes it does read that way nonetheless.

Clear as mud, then? :D

Please understand we're just trying to strike a balance here in this section where we can all have discussions without getting too upset and/or with a greater/improved tolerance of what others are interested in here as sources or links or whatnot.

Boarded Specialists
 

In my defense, with respect to FOOD ADVICE only, I stated that the average vet does not refer to a nutritionist for specialized diets for common diseases. Of course if one had a health issue for which the vet could not provide diet info, then of course one would get a referral. I find it rather insulting to suggest that I would not see a specialist for other issues, such as an ortho. In fact I was referred to and consulted a specialist eye doctor for my dog's cataract surgery.
The surgery was done by her in a specialty vet hospital. I also consulted a gastro specialist at the same hospital when my dog had post op GI issues.
My point was that in my limited experience, for dietary advice it is not COMMON to get a specialist consult from a vet. It is however more common for other issues that regular vets cannot handle.
I may have committed other YT sins, but getting proper care for my dog when needed is not one of them. I wanted that to be made clear.

In my opinion, you're reading far too much into this, and I'm beginning to feel that I can't make ANY comment without SOMEONE feeling insulted. My comments in this context should be taken to mean that Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists are as needed and as valid as Board Certified Veterinary Orthopedic Surgeons and Board Certified Internal Medicine specialists, regardless of how often they are used or how often vets refer people to them. Nothing more.

You're a real trooper trying to strike a good balance. I appreciate your efforts and your intentions. I think that people also need to try not to seek insults where none are intended.

Pardon me for misreading your post. I really DID read it as boarded specialists. BUT the bottom line was that no where in my post was I disparaging you. Quite frankly I think you need to stop with this already....no one was ever personal on this thread to my knowledge..now you think it is something against you? Hopefully my post will be clear to and help others.

As for vets referring to nutritionists, no many do not but as they become more and more popular they will start doing that. My vet and her partners had no experience dealing with a nutritionist until I started using them and I can tell you that they have contacted me for information for their other clients so that they could refer them.

The bottom line though is that vet nutritionists are imho very necessary in dog foods. That is why so many are working for the larger and what I call more reputable companies.

I simply do not like the advice given by the DFA. It has nothing to do with his chosen profession...it has more to do with the fact that even though he freely admits he is not an expert, he comes off like one telling people what foods to avoid for their pets. He and I have one thing in common...the recalls scared us. He lost a dog, I did not. He chose to look at ingredients....I chose to ask questions of vets and then, at my vets suggestion, I contacted the vet nutritionist at Texas A&M. It was then that I learned about companies and quality control. So....while he has recommended foods since those recalls that have since been recalled...he still has not chamged his stance. I have been fortunate and not been affected by recalls with the foods I have chosen. I believe that is because I listened and went with the companies who do what I believe is important.....spend money where it is needed in feeding trials and vet nutritionists on staff. AND most importantly they focus on quality control.

I'm so sorry, this happened, I think the link is a helpful link and I felt like I had to say that, but it just added fuel to the fire. If it's any consolation, there are more people besides me who feel this way, if my PM's are any indication, they are just afraid to post. That saddens me as well. If you think something is valuable, post it, never mind that others won't like it.

I hope you don't get too discouraged. I know we go through phases here where it can be uber frustrating to post for awhile...and then it sort of works itself out and settles again. Bear with us :)!

All we can do is try. We can't please everyone all the time, but we do try very hard to have the right intentions. Hopefully things will settle in.

We all get such PMs. Everyone needs to realize that there is not ONE right way here.

I agree with Phil, that people need to stop reading so much into things.

This is too bad, and is disappointing. I so wish these folks would post and not have the fear.

I do hear this from both sides of things. One angle is that there is a group of people who are afraid to post bc they'll be jumped on by this or that group. Another angle is the group of people who fear posting at times bc they're afraid of being jumped on by what has been called the "polite police" in the past.

If anyone does fear posting, always feel free to share your thoughts with me - no matter which angle you're coming from. The more we hear your thoughts, the more we have to weigh / consider. I'm always open if someone just wants to vent too :).

If we could just find that acceptable middle spot, we'd be okay. No reason we can't find it though.

It really is tiring.

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In the future, I honestly intend to stay away from any controversial topics...it seems attempts at education are often misinterpreted as "brutal"....attempts at trying to keep the thread from going into tramped down weeds yet again with humor, is considered "snarky"...."tones" are continously judged, prejudged, and misjudged....intentions and attempts to inform, clarify, educate, offer personal opinion is considered inappropriate or mean spirited or hateful......

This situation reminds me...... I had a sister in law one time that had a personality disorder....she had medication she was supposed to be taking but she thought she was just fine, it was the rest of the world that was crazy....whenever anyone was around her, we tripped all over ourselves, walking on eggshells, trying to remember and avoid what all SHE thought were cruel, inappropriate, brutal, humiliating, off colored, ludicrous, or incongruous remarks, comments, or conversation.....we would all sit, afraid to open our mouths, afraid of inadvertantly insulting her or hurting her feelings. When anyone would screw up their courage and make a simple comment or attempt to start a shallow conversation, there was always a palpable, nervous pause, while we all sat, waiting to see how SHE was going to react. Tooooooo much drama for what you got in return.....spending an afternoon around her left you exhausted and mentally and emotionally drained....the "risks" began to far out weigh the "benefit" of being in her presence.

I agree 100%.

I just have to say this...what Phil is saying: 'I can't make ANY comment without SOMEONE feeling insulted' & 'I think that people also need to try not to seek insults where none are intended.'

Isn't that also what the other party is feeling? How ironic...

Just take a step back & see yourself in their shoes (in this case, the OP's shoes). Who joined this fantastic group that shares the love & bond of their beloved pets the same way as you...who run into a post/link that she thought was pretty great & want to share it.

It gets bombarded by naysayers & jokes thrown out that she's not sure why it's being thrown out. How would you feel? (You don't have to answer that.)

EVERY thread that gets posted about the Dentist, or DR. Becker (gasp!), or Dr. Dodds (what?!) does not have to end up like this...where Ann has to step in & moderate the divided groups.

Can we just get along?

The bolded part x 1,000,000! See, that's the thing of it -- that the complaints we hear from both sides are virtually identical in content...that the other "side" (whatever you call it) won't let them have their opinion! Same complaint, different angle! Everyone is complaining about wanting the same things here, really.

So, based upon that, maybe we can try to agree that at the end of the day, we're really *more* on the same page here than not...???

It could really be *so* simple, in my opinion. Be respectful in disagreeing, don't disparage sources, leave emotions at the door.

I agree that it's never fair to insult the OP or another poster. I think it's okay to criticize sources, but if we do, we should be careful and respectful in explaining why we are doing it, and try to provide a better alternative, if one is available (hence the discussion of Board Certified Veterinary Nutritionists). And of course the OP and others should feel free to respectfully disagree with our criticisms.

And... we have to stop insulting the sources for the sake of insulting them. I admit that I was guilty of that in a certain post about margaritas that was off topic and deleted. It was an attempt at humor, but it WAS a little insulting to the Dog Food Advisor. It was not directed at the OP at all, and if the OP thought it wasn't funny or thought it was directed at them, I apologize. But yes, we're really more on the same page here than not. We just want what's best for our dogs.

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Yup...it's always okay to be critical of sources, as long as it's done respectfully.

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At the end of the day, I think it always helps to put ourselves in others' shoes. I mean, if there was a thread about Remillard and a bunch of folks went in there poking fun at her or what she does or stands for or calling nutrition a "pseudo-science", a lot people would be quite offended by that disparagement....bc rather than it being critical/thoughtful, the remarks would be disparaging.

However, if they had criticisms or opinions about her and just wanted to express those constructively...totally should be welcome.

:thumbup:

Many of us tried to tell the poster that it was not joking at her and I think if she read some other posts about food she would see this was just trying to keep it from getting really heated. If we all got along and had the same opinions then life would be boring. In most cases these people who chose to fight and bicker will also call, give help when needed and be the first people to pray for a member or there dog if something is going on. I really don't see that anything was terrible on here but that's just my perception. Until recently I had been terrified to say I don't agree or like dr.Becker and dr.Dodds even now it's not taken well but I at least feel better knowing there are others like me. I remember posting a long time ago about a possum having been in my nice fenced in yard and how Callie knew not to go near it and was told how dare I take her outside without a leash and how horrible I am for doing that. There are things I have learned over the years you just don't post in my opinion unless I want to take the chance of being ridiculed and told how bad I am and made to feel like the worst dog mommy ever. I used to think that dog food advisor was great and that it was all about ingredients. I later found out the food Callie thrived on was Royal Canin but I kept telling myself it wasn't good food and she needed better so I switched. After her getting sick and having to go on prescription food and I took the time to look at how many dogs that prescription food has improved and even saved there lives and then I looked at the ingredients and I saw it's not the ingredients that dog food advisor or all these people are saying is the best ingredients. If they were the best ingredients and the ones in all these prescription foods are so terrible then how are they saving lives? How is it that vet nutritionists who study what dogs need say these foods with these " sub par" ingredients are the best. Just because say an apple is better for us then rice does not mean it's the same for dogs there systems are a lot different then ours. That was just like an example not a real comparison or anything.

I personally love your posts. I look forward to reading them.

I really hope, we as a community, can put all this behind us & be more mindful of others, even if we are sitting behind a computer...there are real people out there that we are interacting with.

Everyone is an individual, so are our dogs...I believe there is not 1 way, but many different ways...we need to find a way to express that w/out making the other individual feel alienated. Maybe, if it's been mentioned in a thread, no need to repeat it over & over? Little things like that.:aimeeyork

Yes, we are here bc of our dogs. :) Thank you Phil, for your honest heartfelt post.

Honestly, Jenny, I have had a difficult time responding to some of your threads because I genuinely like you. I just cannot sit and not comment on something that I feel another side should be looked at; and I do think that you and others really deep down don't want us to say anything against what you have posted. Maybe I am wrong on this...and maybe I should just message you about it.

Bottom line, it is not my intent to insult anyone. In the end people make their decisions on what is best for their pups. I get that...and unless I see someone seriously neglecting one, I won't criticize that person.

I may try to sway them because of my beliefs...but in the end I don't expect them to listen to what I say. I only offer.