Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom (Post 4556490)

Interesting!!!

Gosh, what a colossal bummer for these needing ltd ingred food though...bc it does show us how vulnerable these foods might be. Makes you wonder if homecooked is always where someone should start if doing an elimination diet....

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky (Post 4556501)

I am sorry but I was questioning the comments not YOU. I apologize if I offended you. I think on a general forum like this the posts should be written such that the average person could understand. If you are suggesting that I am unable to understand simple English and concepts, then I would be offended. I can understand well scientific papers in my field but the jargon used in other fields is not obvious to me as I do not know all the specialized terms.

Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4556474)

Here is a link to another article on dog food protein source contamination that was cited by the article above: Identification of undeclared sources of animal origin in canine dry foods used in dietary elimination trials - Ricci - 2013 - Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition - Wiley Online Library. BTW, I find this article more valid than the one cited above because they used microscopic analysis of bone fragments to determine the species present, as well as DNA analysis. AND their main issue is with foods containing protein sources not on the list of ingredients, not with foods that don't appear to contain protein sources that ARE on the list of ingredients.

Unfortunately, this article doesn't name the brands that were tested, but they found that 10 out 12 foods tested contain protein sources not listed on the label. Now THAT is problematic for dogs with allergies, because these were supposed to be limited ingredient foods:

Summary

Failure to respond to commercial limited antigen diets can occur in dogs kept on a dietary trial for the diagnosis of adverse food reaction (AFR). The aim of this study was to assess twelve canine dry limited antigen diets (eleven novel protein diets and one hydrolysed diet) for potential contamination by ingredients of animal origin not mentioned on the label. The validity of the two methods adopted for the detection of such food antigens was also evaluated. Each dietary product was analysed by microscopy analysis using the official method described in Commission Regulation EC 152/2009 with the aim of identifying bone fragments of different zoological classes (mammalian, avian and fish) and by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) for the identification of DNA of animal origin. Discrepancies between the results obtained by PCR and/or microscopy analysis and the ingredients listed on pet food packages were found. Only in two pet foods did the results of both analyses match the ingredients listed on the label. In the remaining ten samples, microscopy detected bone fragments from one or two unpredicted zoological classes, revealing avian fragments in six of ten samples followed by those of fish in five of ten and mammalian fragments in four of ten. In two samples, microscopy analysis identified a contamination that would have otherwise passed unobserved if only PCR had been used. However, PCR confirmed the presence of all the zoological classes detected by microscopy and also identified the DNA of an additional unexpected zoological class in two samples. Dogs might fail to respond to commercial limited antigen diets because such diets are contaminated with potential allergens. Both PCR and microscopy analysis are required to guarantee the absence of undeclared animal sources in pet foods. Before ruling out AFR, a novel protein home-made diet should be considered if the dog is unresponsive to a commercial regimen.

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky (Post 4556477)

I find this section very 'scientific and technical' and I for one find it hard to understand.

Originally Posted by gemy (Post 4556506)

Well my point is why not go first to a home made diet? If severe allegeries are suspected go first to a home made by a vet nutritionist? Especially for small breed dogs where the volumne of food consumed is so very small on a daily allowance.


We feed home made 4lbs a day! This is with our large breed dogs. And quite frankly when you homefeed one in a multi dog household fairly soon you will have the kibble eater turning up their nose - as they smell fresh meat - fresh food - and not the dried processed food.


WE had with our large foster equivocal results with him on an RD food. But once we got his Demodex under control we gradually switched him over from RC hydrolyzied protein kibble to a home cooked meal for him. By then of course he was already turning up his adult nose at this kibble as his packmates were getting home cooked. His demodex was gone, his coat grew in and started to gleam. he went through his second surgery with flying colors. He put on muscle mass and of course healthy coat.


And to be honest of course there were other factors - he was out of the hell of a shelter - in a home. With doggies all around him. The smells the nuture of a real home. Being trained and taught on lead. Being hugged at any time of the day. Rewarded for good behaviour - boundaries set and discipline and routine established. Asked to perform, loved when he did. Gently remonstrated when he transgressed. Washed - massaged - groomed and loved.


And I had to give him lots of meds - sluicing out his eyes correcting the terrible job the SPCA did on his nails - bit by nail bit.


So how much was the RC food - I guess for me - maybe it helped but in the final analysis we moved away from this food - and he thrived.!

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky (Post 4556512)

Thank you, I better understand now:)

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88 (Post 4556403)

Callie has IBD which is caused by food allergies and ended up having to go on Royal Canin hypoallergenic small breed it's prescription but wow she is doing amazing now.

Originally Posted by Doodlebug (Post 4556545)

Phil, thank you for posting. I had the same thoughts about home cooking and talked to my vet about it. He basically said that it would be a complicated process and discouraged me. I don't know if that is because she has recently had some issues with elevated liver enzymes or what. I know there are some things that they want to avoid giving her because of liver issues. But even though I don't really like to cook, I would surely cook for her if I knew it would help her. The vet did discourage me from looking for recipes on the Internet for her, which I wouldn't do anyway.

I don't know how bad her problem with chicken really is but the problems were when I home cooked meals using chicken she itched, when I gave her chicken and rice for runny stools the chicken and rice only prolonged the runny stools, and then when she was on her prescription liver diet, we were eventually allowed to add green beans, then I added boiled chicken and she developed a skin infection. The vet thought the chicken must have caused it. So we decided that avoiding chicken would be best for her. This all happened over several years and I was told by one of our old vets that we could try adding chicken to her diet a little at a time to see if she could tolerate it. In small portions she seemed ok with it. But after she had the skin infection, I don't want to give it to her anymore. I don't know if a tiny trace of chicken in a can of dog food would hurt her but I just try to avoid it.

Originally Posted by Doodlebug (Post 4556380)

I would be more concerned if the label DID NOT show that there was chicken in it and it DID contain chicken, since Daisy seems to have a chicken allergy. My vet called Hills and spoke to their nutritionist to find a good safe food for her in the Hills prescription line. She is on the Hills prescription d/d (salmon formula) for skin support now. I have decided for myself, I am looking at dog food labels and have no clue about chicken liver flavor, chicken broth etc. Can she have foods containing those things if she has a chicken allergy? How about turkey? Are eggs bad for her? So I have decided to put my trust in my vet and the nutritionists at Hills to recommend a good food for my girl. They know so much more than I do. I hope I am doing the right thing.

By the way, thanks Ellie May, you have provided a lot of good and helpful information over the years and I just want you to know how much I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Doodlebug (Post 4556528)

I am really happy that she is doing so well! I know that is a great relief for you. By the way, I read your doggie reviews and saw some really cool stuff on there. Thanks for the reviews and the links!

Originally Posted by pstinard (Post 4556515)

I'm glad :). I really do feel bad when people don't understand me, or misunderstand me. It's all good now. And if I do it again, let me know.