:thumbup: I think yorkiemom1 posts were great

Asking a dog owner the best way to raise a dog is like asking a parent the best way to raise a child. We each have our own beliefs and values, and we each have our own ideas of what success means to us. What you may find acceptable, I may find severely lacking, and vice-versa.

IMO, Educate yourself and make the best informed decisions you can for your puppy. Try to objectively analyze the source of the information, as well as the information itself. i.e. It may not be the best idea to base your potty training regime on the advice of someone whose dog still potties all over their home.

That human dentist again :rolleyes: thing is his website is full of his OPINION about dog food. It's no different than my opinion, your opinion or the guy next doors opinion. Basing a food choice on his for profit website is pretty pointless. But if you need a cleaning and in his area I say go for it! If he's got that Shingle hung and it say DDS that's his profession. But Dog Food Advisor is no different than Poop Guru and we all know who she is :p

I don't think that the dog food advisor is COMPLETELY worthless, because at least he publishes ingredients and nutritional content so people can compare brands themselves. That might be helpful if a dog has an allergy to a certain ingredient, or needs a dog food that doesn't have too much protein or fat, etc. I agree that his subjective ratings are somewhat meaningless, and it's better to consult a veterinarian or a veterinarian dietician about your dog's nutritional needs.

I am not an expert. But I have contacted pet nutritionists and they all agree the cheap brands are crap and full of fuller and that feeding that to your dog is like "feeding them McDonalds cereal every day (most say raw is best and I have looked at the ingredients of Primal and Stella & Chewy's are they are great)." They also say TONS of studies are paid for by the big, powerful corporations who have an interest in promoting their cheap filler food. Think about it, why would the government and scientists just be doing dog food studies? Where would the funding come from. It's the same with many vets who get samples and kick backs from the cheaper brands like Science Diet, etc. The good pet stores near me don't even stock stuff like that, only raw, and good brands like Weruva and Orijin, etc., and I really feel it's important to be a thoughtful consumer. Every one needs to do what they feel is best for their dog, but as a human nutritionist, I wouldn't feed my kids meat from Walmart or lots of processed stuff, I would feel them meat from Whole Foods and fresh fruits and veggies. Everyone is different though, lets learn from each other. I am so excited to get help and guidance from the knowledgeable people on this forum about my fur baby!:lovewings

Not sure how to edit, yet. I just want to amend- I do not mean random raw food from any grocery, I mean a raw food brand with well balanced and organic ingredients. And also, to say, just because a scientist says something does not make it true. With the human food, the FDA will approve tons of things that are bad for you because of money/ politics/ lobbyists, pressure from multi-national corporations. Even if the FDA approves crap like lunchables and ramen and puts corn syrup in everything, it is still somewhat common sense to choose fresh, local "real" foods like nuts, fruit, lean meats, veggies, whole grains instead of processed food w/ MSG and corn syrup. I don't see a need for things to be contentious and am not putting any poster down AT ALL, I am just saying that vets, like human doctors may not be the food experts (I know plenty of doctors who smoke or don't eat healthfully) and that just because a scientist recommends something doesn't mean it is good or his/ her opinions are unbiased.

If you are a human nutritionist, I am sure you will agree that human and animal nutrition are not the same.

As for the pet nutritionists you spoke with, were they animal nutritionists? Vets who specialize in nutrition? I sort of doubt it.

My vet does not make a living off of Hill's Science Diet, nor has she EVER suggested any dog food for any of my pups or pups I foster UNLESS they had medical conditions in which case they had special nutritional needs. And, then I feed Hills, Purina or Royal Canin.

Hill's Science Diet is not a cheap dog food. I feed my pups who are not on RX food, Hill's Ideal Balance. I find it offensive how many people trash a company that does so much to make sure their foods are safe for our pets.

As for the pet stores you shop at...sure there are lots of pet stores selling "holistic" foods because that is where the money is now. People have been bombarded with super slick marketing regarding dog foods and ingredients. Many of these companies spend more on marketing than animal nutrition experts and/or feeding trials for good quality control. Many of them have problems with their packaging and that has led to many recalls due to salmonella.

Welcome to YT. Yes, we can all learn from each other. To me, the first step in learning is to be aware of the fact that each person has his/her own opinions and preferences as to what to feed the pets he/she cares about.

I just posted this on another thread about raw diets.....

"Depending on how old a person's pup is......I almost killed an entire litter thinking my smart a$$ was going to be all healthy and doing the right thing, when I was so far behind the learning curve it was dangerous. You know how they always say, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."? Well, I learned very quickly you do NOT give raw chicken (Primal) to puppies, even tho they absolutely ADORE it!!, because their intestines do not have the necessary bacteria and flora to digest/process raw chicken, and they all started vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy, advancing to bloody stools from the slick gut that developed from the constant diarrhea....we got it stopped before it went on to produce toxic shock syndrome or a systemic bacteremia, kidney damage, etc ......so I learned MY lesson and wont be doing THAT again! Now for a mature dog, raw is great, if that is the direction you want to go. But do NOT feed raw meat to young puppies! Experimenting on your puppy with something as simple as diet, because you go out and read a little and think you know what you are doing, can really show you just how woefully inadequate your knowledge base is. It sure did stop my gleeful bouncing around in the raw dog food department, trying to make the transition from momma's milk to RC puppy kibble easy! (Thank God, RC has come out with canned Starter Mousse and canned puppy food for that transition!)"

I too have spoken to pet nutritionists over the past 5.5 years as I engaged the professional services of diplomats of the American College of Veterinary Nutritionists (ACVN) for my dogs home cooked and special dietary needs. As a human nutritionist, you must at least appreciate and have respect for those kinds of professional licensure and designations, training, and advanced clinical experience.

Would it surprise you to know that some of these very highly regarded experts have the very opposite view that you've stated? They would most certainly pick quality control and scientific features over a well launched and funded marketing strategy by companies who shirk things like science and professional nutritionists. I can't say which companies are good or bad but I know I would look first at who is making their food -- and in most cases, it is not a veterinary nutritionist! Why spend millions on marketing and not spend a fraction of that to have a salaried nutrtionist on staff. Hospitals certainly wouldnt hire a painter to make up meals for their patients, so why should pet food companies hire advertising people or relatives to make up our pets food?

Not everything you buy at whole foods is nutritionally superior. I don't shop at walmart much, but when I have, I have seen organic foods and grass fed meat options. There are canned items that are "processed" like coconut milk that are no different than WF and wild caught salmon or sardines that are no different in nutritional value than a fancier more expensive brand. The frozen food sections carry local fishes, and they may not say "wild caught" but when you see "cod" in New England, there is really nothing farm raised. I'm sure local catfish or the like end up in wamarts down south. Do you really think that a major buyer like Walmart isn't sourcing their foods from many places including local dairies, fisheries, or slaughter facilities? Many people save a lot of money shopping at Walmart for their families, and there is nothing wrong with that!

I have actually heard the opposite from vet nutristists and threw articles written by them, many say raw food is not safe and not the best. I also don't find them recommending the "holistic" brands either. Vets don't make money on proscription food and that food saves many dogs lives.

1. Where does this fantasy that vets are getting kickbacks from dog food manufacturers?

2. "The good pet store near me" that is your opinion that it is "good".

3. My dogs all eat Royal Canin RX food and are very health. That is not an opinion it's a fact.

It would not surprise me at all. I should explain why I feel the way I do about these cheap, processed brands full of corn and filler. Although my first degree is from a liberal arts uni, I stumbled on to nutrition as a side career, and I will tell you anyone can call themselves an nutritionist and becoming a registered dietician is a far more rigorous process. I went as far as applying to school again to be an RD and stopped because I completely disagree with most ADA and FDA guidelines that are allegedly backed by scientists and doctors, and the pushing of processed foods by companies like Nestle (which makes Purina) and Unilever. Large multi-national corporations care most about profit, bottom line and they drive much of the hedgemonic norms we live by. I could not endorse a way of eating that may be backed by paid "scientists" and "doctors" but has left many, many Americans overweight, sick, unhealthy, and dependent on pharmaceuticals for things like blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, etc. However, due to lobbyists, politics, profit, monopolies, companies like Monsanto, the FDA will approve things like sugary processed cereal w/ added fiber instead of telling people just to eat steel cut oats, quinoa, lentils, fresh fruits and veggies, lean meats not from factory farms, etc. I do not know whether you have lived abroad or researched food and diet and seen a difference in the say, the Japanese or French eat/ their general attitudes towards food and health, but it's quite interesting to learn about! You mention that a hospital would not hire a painter to create a menu for them but hospitals often have absolutely terrible food of the white bread and mayo variety. It's quite perplexing to me, and probably due to the fact that drs are not nutrition experts, bad food is cheap, and the food is meant to be universally palatable, which is not necessarily a good thing. My roommate is a doctor and the discussion here inspired a discussion of our own regarding the relationships between doctors and food. He is not American and said he feels the food companies have too much money, power, and influence here, but obviously other doctors would agree.

As for Walmart, I should clarify- I was using Walmart to refer to crappy food like oscar mayar meats and and WF to refer to whole, real foods. It was erroneous of me to assume people I don't converse with regularly would know what I mean, and I apologize for my mistake. You made several statements I have not researched, so I do not know whether they use small, local farmers instead of huge, horrible factory farms that abuse both animal and worker but I will not accept or reject those statements unless I can back it up with research rather than assumption. I can confidently say, from a well researched standpoint, I think they are a disgusting corporation with deplorable labor policies and a low quality of cheap, crappy product who treat their employees terribly. However that it off topic, and as it pertains to the discussion at hand, I simply meant it makes more basic sense to me for a human to eat choose things like kale and beans and root veggies from a local farmer's market over a "fortified" fiber one bar w/ HFCS made by some huge company, and to me, it seems that logic should extend to animals but using Walmart vs. Whole Foods was not a good shorthand. As I said initally, I am not an expert and see that I have far more research to do. I am definitely willing to admit my ignorance on animal nutrition (although I do consider myself very well educated on human nutrition), although I'm not sure why this topic is contentious enough that people are getting personally offended and perhaps even sarcastic. You and I disagree on Walmart, and that's cool and ok, I appreciate that you made your point in a way that was not attacking me. I came here to learn, and share the information that seems relevant to me, and really appreciate posters like YorkieMom and several other posters giving me links personal anecdotes, and feedback.

Lady gemma
I see you're very emotive about your opinions. Whatever they are, they're yours. I hope you'll forgive my disinterest in this debate or desire go off topic with the conspiracies of government and big bad corporations or even hospitals. You want to feed raw, feed raw.
Good luck with your pup.

Yikes you see a vet that still recommending over vaccinating your dogs? scary.

1. Dog food advisor or another local dentist?
2. The "good" pet store near me is out of biz because the main $ maker was raw patties and holistic foods that are starting to fall out of favor and sales plummeted.
3. Your dogs are amazing, congratulations!

I don't see the need for a third party comparative took copied and pasted onto his page. It's more reliable to go to the source. His star ratings that suck people into believing he is some sort of expert render his site a bad starting point in my view.

The question was raised in another thread about feeding kibble when we could all just homecook or give canned food. The answer lies in financial expenditure, convenience, or time economy for most people. And for the rest their pups do best on dry food. It would be a massive oversimplification of canine nutrition to say kibble has no place. Contrary to popular opinion corn, wheat, soy, dairy, and byproducts have a place too.

There is no one best diet, but there is a best diet for each individual.

My pup thrived on homecooked food for awhile...and then she didn't. She eats kibble now - one kind and only one kind - made by Purina. So clearly since this company has kept my dog alive I like them. I do not like all of their foods and completely understand why some choose to avoid the company, but they have a place.

Vets do not get much nutrition training. But they do see thousands of animals a year. They know what diets work for which pets and that is worth more than a two week Google education on the topic. They do make money on the foods they sell, but 1) the profit is near nothing when considering how much space is needed to stock it, and 2) they can stick any food brand they want. By the way, it might interest some of you to know that my vet buys her dogs' food at the pet store hecause it is cheaper that way.

Good point about the DFA's copy and paste. Also, he chooses only ONE variety to represent a whole product line--the other varieties might have different ingredient lists.

:thumbup::thumbup:
I was rather amazed and somewhat disappointed that he stated on his site, that he bases his star rating "on information he gets off the dog food brand sites" because as a small advisory business, he does not have the.....whatever.......to do his own testing. So really, all he does is look on an ingredients list, determine what HE thinks is good or necessary in a pet's diet, and slap a star on it. And look at all the people that go along with this man!!! Some to the point that he is considered a Bible on dog nutrition! And you have people kicking scientific testing and research to the curb over what this man says.....a real problem because science proves "corn, wheat, soy, dairy, and byproducts have a place" also.....these are NOT poisonous to a dogs system, as many would have you believe. Now, if you choose not to feed a product that contains that stuff, great for you! but people should NOT be calling dog food that does contain, in the daily recommended amounts, these ingredients as junk food or crap! Just make it clear that YOU choose not to feed whatever it is you find unacceptable for your pet....not because it is junk or crap, but because it is YOUR choice! Ellie May hit the nail on the head....."It would be a massive oversimplification of canine nutrition to say kibble has no place." It certainly does have a place, and it provides healthy diet choices for millions of pets!

:yeahthat: about a hundred times!!

I haven't read all the posts and I don't intend to. I also didn't mean to offend LadyJane, just wanted to help, but..

Anyway, as far as education, I have one degree in Animal; Medical Technology and have worked in that field since 1987. I also have another degree in Medical Laboratory Technology and currently (for the last 11+ years) in a trauma center in human medicine.

No, I am not uneducated. I also LOVE research, but I don't just look at numbers. I look at results. I have working dogs and I see results. I have feed the other brands and have had health issues, chronic metabolic problems, etc on Purina and Science Diet. And again, yes, once upon a time, I fed nothing but Purina, since the formulation changed, so did the health on my animals. Not just mine, but fellow dog show and dog sports competitors.

Again, I am sorry you took offense to my post, I just wanted to share and to help.

Good day.

Unless your a vet nutritionist I'm a bit confused why you sharing your education history, seems kinda off topic. I would read all the posts you might learn something. One should always be open to learning.

No offense taken from me! I know you were just trying to help. It's so hard when you read certain things online or hear from pet stores, etc, and even in commercials now and then after being so sure of yourself and then seeing total contradictions telling you, NO, these foods are fine, it can get VERY confusing and dog food can be a heated topic on forums lol. And it goes in waves. I find most of the forums I am on now have gone the opposite way where a lot of folks are beginning to just... not care as much, or not be as judgy, etc. When I first joined dog forums in late 2008, it was very much pro-raw all over.

I was a dog food "elitist" not that long ago :p... Almost "looked down" on those who were feeding brands I didn't find up to par. I don't believe I was ever nasty about it but I was very sure in what I believed and that it was 1000% right, only to finally realize/admit that nothing is so black and white. And ya know what, the majority of dogs live perfectly happy, well loved lives on all sorts of kibble and survive. I'm not going to sit back and judge people anymore for what they choose to feed their dog. Would *I* feed certain foods? No, I still am more particular about what I feed than most would be but I'm also a lot more lax in a lot of other ways. I still feed Acana kibble because it's just what I notice he does best on! But I have no problem grabbing a bag of Purina Beyond from the grocery store in a pinch, or feeding Cesar wet food or Mighty Dog wet food, or Dentastix as treats.

Basically, I believe we all just truly want what is best for our dogs & need to support one another in owning and enjoying our dogs instead of worrying so much about what others are doing with their dogs (so long as it's not abusive).

I am not offended....I just wanted it to be clear that it was a totally inappropriate remark. I said how dare you because I meant it...... You just don't tell people that they are feeding their dogs like livestock. To be offended, I would have to care and be insecure with my choices of what I feed and I am so beyond that. I simply want to be crystal clear that it was extremely ill informed, not to mention judgemental.

LadyJane, I guess the wording on my post was awkward - what I meant is that Purina and Hill's started treating people's pets like livestock - not that you were. I know you love your pets. I was very disappointed in a situation that caused a lot of pain, heartache and financial loss to fellow competitors over a formulation change that killed a bunch of well loved and cared for show rabbits and the food company was a bit casual in their response to that (fairly widespread) incident.

I never want anyone to experience what I saw other go through with that.

Your wording has not changed much. :rolleyes:

Had an interesting talk with the folks at Orijen today.
Several things were shared with me. One I really found interesting is that they told me that Europe had higher standards for dog foods (their company is Canadian) and they ship to Europe so have to meet the standards there.

Anyone else heard that? and know what "higher standards" mean?

This explains the EU certification a bit:
Is your choice of pet food APHIS EU Certified? | The DogSmith

Thanks for the link Britster, I also really liked your post about different strokes for different folks ;) I also had some pretty stone concepts of what I thought was best for dog food and for my dog and have been through a really interesting (and humbling) journey finding that the food that my dog thrives on is very different then what I once thought was best :)

As far as European quality control standards exceeding american ones, I have been frustrated often to find that is the case- I want to ensure that my dog isn't fed diseased animals and that my kids toys aren't coated in toxins too, dangit! :p I wonder if there is a list of dog foods with that certification available?

Judy, I know you are very knowledgable about royal canin and in good contact with their company, are you familiar with this set of standards by chance? I was very attentive to the rc debate here on yt when rc switched the Yorkshire terrier 28 formula. My gal had been doing very well on it (the first food ever for the first time in her whole life!) and when the formula changed she would not eat it, so I was distressed. What ultimately happened for us is that we ended up (at your faithful recommendation) switching my Lilah to rc mini- and the world is good again! I appreciated your advisement then and would be curious about your input on the eu standard and value any information you had that specificly pertained to rc.