Short version to my last post
 

What is a recommended food for a "starving" nine year old yorkie who has been on both raw and regular dry food and now is developing bladder stone issues, possible cushings symptoms, always had weight issues but now is at an idea weight and want to keep it that way. Doctors all contradicting each other.. very confused and upset.

I had fed her skinless apples, string beans, tons of carrots, boiled chicken, some turkey, sweet potatoes, green pepper and now being told that all are bad for her.

She is extremely low energy since she was a puppy.. couch potatoe. .and seemed to get more energy with ziwipeak and stools were less smelly and harder, now back on natural balance reduced and inhales it without chewing a piece and worried since it is harder than ziwipeak (and add water too) that it will cause more of a problem.

She is losing her hair, has a lot of bald spots with reddish and some "old age dark spots" according to vet.. always licks paws for nine years at bed time and wake up time as well as a couple of times a day..

HELP.. going out of my mind and have another vet appt at 1.

No blood in urine, no limping, not overly thirsty, not urinating excessively...

So confused and upset. .she is 9 1/2 years old and want to keep her healthy and happy for years to come.

Just want a good food and snack.. now giving cheerios since she cries and walks me into the kitchen all day long. She is not an outdoor walker although I pick her up walk her away from house and then she will walk back as often as possible . .in this weather she shakes and wants to go home. She doesn't like toys and doesnt think she is a dog and loves to just go out on errands, which she does.. especially shoppping cart stores.. loves to get the attention, or stay home and whine all day and bark all day for FOOD FOOD FOOD.. sounds like me.

Thanks for your help. thought ziwi would help and now it might be the culprit. .she has been on about four small 2 pound bags for under a year. thanks again.

Has she been tested for Cushings, thyroid, blood chem etc?

Hi,

wylie is gorgeous by the way... I believe you had fortunately responded to my outcry, a couple of weeks ago. She had what I thought was a test but I now found out through YT that it was merely a blood panel. My vet said all came back fine and she/he/she ( I spoke with three of the four associates in the practice) did not believe that she had cushings, but that they did find crystals in her urine indicating possible bladder stones. That was a shock since I didn't see any symtoms, if there all even symptons.

I had been feeding her tons of carrots to try to get her mind off of "real" food, but apparentely now my vets are telling me by giving her this constant salald of vegetables as treats, (green beans (no salt canned), fresh sweet potatoe, green pepper, apple etc.) I have now caused those.

to date I have cut out all vegetables and fruits and give her kibble as her treat and cheerios.. not even knowing if those can harm her.. read on here they are safe.

Changed her food from ziwipeak back to reduced calorie natural balance which I feel is way too hard for her to digest, even watered down.

So in answer to your question.. $300 dollars later at last visit, after about six bouts of ear infections going back and forth from left to right.. blackenss on her vaginal area which comes and goes, and now an over abundants of growths and "age spots", loss of hair, dryness of skin.. now I see wrinkled appearance on belly that almost looks like stitching on her belly that I never even noticed in over nine years, she is of course spayed and had a hernia at birth.. but never noticed that scarring.. as my husband keeps saying.. "stop looking sooooo much, for bad things".. now a small growth on her upper front arm looks like it is falling off and much darker and new brown raised growth on her back near the supposed "brown flat age spot" and one white wart looking thing on her lower torso.

I sound like I am singing the xmas song... and a partridge on a bare back..

Sorry for the silliness but I am seriously going out of my mind and on top of this she is long overdue for a dental and has the worst breath.

Please help so I know what I should ask once again today.

I don't know much about this condition myself but i do know some people who are having great success with feeding a modified BARF diet. I see you were feeding a freeze dried raw and from what i understand dogs prone to crystals need to consume a lot of water. If you're interested in learning more about the BARF diet let me know. Sorry you're going through all this it sounds like such a stressful ordeal. I hope you're able to find a solution soon.

thank you
 

It is extremely stressful and I know I am coming off like a nutcase but it is very frustrating when we do not get answers and I feel in my gut and see that things have changed in reese. I am NOT experienced and Reese is our first family yorkie and dog for that matter, so I am totally in the dark. I did figure out how to post pictures and set up a couple of albums of her hair loss condition (from today) and her stomach dryness/wrinkling (which unfortunately doesn't show up) and some other recent pictures of her. She is a sweety and like all of you here, she is my fourth BABY.. I have three human daughters and as crazy as it may be to my husband or other people Reese is my canine baby and deserves the same amount of research, attention and great overall care and love.

Any additional advice prior to going to my vet (again) would be very helpful. Thank all of you for your concern and kind words and advice. I will get to the bottom of this. The truth is she doesn't seem to be anywhere near as upset as I am, or show any concern (pain, difficulty etc) I just see symptoms and want her to be healthy and happy.

I sent you a PM.

I took a look at the pictures, poor Reese:(. Please keep us updated on what the vet says

Thank you candigirl.. I appreciate your concern and your advice. I went to the links and got a lot of information so I can go armed to my vet... I am sure he will be THRILLED with me. Just kidding, but I feel I need to be aware of possibilities and questions to ask him, as well as things I have researched. At times I feel my group gets annoyed with all of my questions and comments and wants me to just stay offline.

I have also contacted a friend, more daughters friends dad, who has a vet practice and when I keyworded dermotology his practice came up. It must have been destiny since he was the vet (used as third opinon) almost nine years ago, who told me NOT to do hip surgery on Reese and thanfully he was 100% correct.

If wondering why I didn't remain with his practice, he is much further from my home and I felt a little awkward as if it was a conflict of interest, when the girls were younger and close. Also, quite honestly over the years I didn't have any real health issues with Reese, if at all, and I guess to some degree, your vet is only as good as your health.. as with our doctors, as well.

He will be calling me back when he gets out of surgery and hopefully I can go for a second opinion and get to the bottom of this. I too, as many mention on here, feel as if I am manufacturing Reese's problems.

Please keep her in your prayers today, for her 3PM appt with her regular vet, and hopefully he will give us good advice and start Reese and myself on the right track.

I agree with you vet, I think your dog may even be malnourished due to all the snacks. I'm one of those people who have said unsweetened cheerios were safe, but I didn't mean as part of the diet to quench hunger pains. I used the cheerios for training and when Joey was a puppy, I gave them to him during his baths so he would be more cooperative. However as an adult, I use his regular food for most training. Some vets say a few unsalted green beans are okay, if you want to fill them up, and they need to lose weight, some of the snacks you give have a high Glycemic Index, such as carrots and can actually make the dog hungrier. Also, if you are giving too many snacks even what you think are healthy snacks, your dog really isn’t getting the proper nutrition. A healthy human diet is not a healthy canine diet. I think I would find a dog food and pretty much stick with that and forget about all the snacks, which may not be adding as much nutrition as you think. It may also help to talk her for walks if you want to maintain her weight rather than restrict her food so much. Also, I would try to get her a dental as soon as possible, infected teeth can cause other problems. The warts or moles, often come with age, and these are things you might want to ask your doctor about.

Why hasnt your vet recommended a prescription dog food. Your vet should be helping you with this

Reese unfortunately basically refuses to walk. Like I said I try daily to walk holding her away from my home and then she will walk back.. as fast as possible or will drag herself, and I have to pick her up (since I do not want to choke her) go a few feet and then place her back down in hopes she will "rewalk". I do not mind doing this since I know how important the exercise is for her. She usually doesn't make it for much more than 15 minutes a day. She will shake and make a mad rush for my door. I cannot take her off the home route and try to continue on, since she smells HOME immediately. She wears a harnass since she also has a sensitive tracea (not collapsed) but will honk all the way down the roads, like the geese on the road.

I have also tried the jacuzzi with my daughter in it, since we do not have a pool for exercise and she nearly scratched my daughters skin off. I know I am making Reese sound like a pickyune, but she is really a wonderful little girl.

I dont know if she is malnurished.. never heard that.. because she has always been overweight and fighting her excess pounds alongside me. She just has always required tons of food, at least in her mind. We always say that if she was left a 50 pound bag of food, she would eat until she died. Gd forbid. I can never free feed since there is no such thing in her life. Once the food, of any kind, over her nine years we have been through tons of brands, prescription RD and WD, and the same results for all.. a starving yorkie girl.

I have thought that part of her problem is out and out boredom and have always taken her with me to as many dog friendly places as possible. She is NOT a big fan of other dogs.. not bad, just doesn't think they are as "great" as she might think she is, and sees herself as a little human girl vs a dog.. or so we think.

When she goes to the beach or parks.. she isn't the least bit interested in dogs and only wants to watch the children on swings or monkey bars and interact with them.

As you can tell, I am smiling when I type this and certainly am going off track. My vet doesn't seem to be too interested in the food I choose, which is very upsetting. He didn't think she need a prescription "diet" food any longer but was reluctant to name a healthy brand or type. Hopefully my husband will do better with him, today, but I tend to doubt it.

I hopefully will get a call from my vet friend and at least go for another opinion with copies of the blood panel and urinanalysis that was done three weeks ago.

thanks to all again and again for your posts.

It's a misconception that overweight people aren't malnourished; most of them are, because in many cases, the weight came on from eating the wrong foods. Like I said before, the foods you’re feeding her aren’t so bad for a humans, but they aren’t complete for a dog, a dog has different needs. Anytime snacks consume 20% of calorie needs, those snacks must be balanced,or a supplement is needed. I agree with your vet on the food, your dog doesn't need a prescription food, just find a food you’re comfortable with and your dog can digest well. There are so many good choices on the market. Some of the weight control formulas have ingredients that are "fillers" and can be hard for some dogs to digest. You said the weight was good, so I think you need to address some of the other problems. When Joey gained too much weight after a trick training class, the vet said to reduce his food by 1/3 and add about 5 green beans to his meal to help fill him up. This allowed Joey to lose about 1 ounce a week. We give him Merrick Bully sticks, and they are more of a chewing stick then a snack like so many other bully sticks. Because it has a low moisture content, it takes him over a whole week to eat one, and I believe it helps satisfy his hunger, along with keeping his teeth and gums healthy. If your dog is eating a bully stick in one day, the moisture content of it is too high. One last thing, since your dog doesn’t like to be active you might look for one of those interactive toys for feeding. There are several on the market, you place the kibble in the toy and she has to work for her dinner. We also played fetch with Joey during mealtime, so he’d have to run and fetch a toy to retrieve a piece of kibble. By the way, I'm not sure if the Jacuzzi was heated, but dogs cannot tolerate the high heat that humans can.

Im sorry and im hoping you can get better advice at the new vets. It doesnt sound right to me she had bladder stone issues and wasnt given a prescription diet to try to prevent them.

What type of crystals are they? Struvite?
Was a culture done? If not, why not?
If struvites are present, was a round of antibiotics given?
Has there been any diagnostic imaging done on the bladder and kidneys?
Are there any symptoms?
Has the vet indicated that the crystals are an issue? Or are they maybe along the line of amorphous phosphates and not such a big thing?
Is the rest of the U/A normal?
Any protein in the urine?
What's the specific gravity and pH?
Has a T4 been done to assess the thyroid?
Is the chemistry and CBC normal?
Liver enzymes normal?
Triglycerides, cholesterol, glucose normal?
Did the vet offer an explanation for the skin?

This is where I would be starting. Definitely no need to answer any of the above. I would be finding a vet that would discuss these things with me though as soon as possible. If the current vet is letting things go while telling you that they are concerned, then that's not good.

Not all crystals are a huge deal. Some are.
Your vet SHOULD be advising you what food to feed. When this many issues are present, they should have an opinion or send you to somebody that can help you. It might not matter except for the crystals being present. Depending on the type, dietary modifications may be needed. Until you find a vet that will help you figure out the diet, I would feed a high quality, balanced dog food.

Back from my regular vet...still confused to some degree
 

Thanks again to all who took the time to read my many threads and posts..

After listening to my entire rundown of why I was back at my vets office (lead vet) he did agree that Reese is losing her hair. After taking handfuls out of the bald spots for my husband (who was present and prior to the vets entrance) still didn't know what I was talking about. Yorkies, non shedding or very minor minor shedding dogs, but after six handfuls of hair, my husband still couldn't see any problem... showed him pictures I sent in to YT hoping if he can't see it in real time maybe the light in the pictures will prove she is balding. still got a weak response. MEN!!!!

I listed all of Reese's issues.. starving 24/7, finally lost weight close to three pounds over years, back to normal water intake, normal urination (never any blood or straining.. just more frequency for a few days (three weeks ago), hair loss, growths, crystals in bladder according to his associates urinealysis, YET I was informed today that her PH level was 6 1/2 but still showed signs of crystals.... he said that PH really doesn't mean too much because even though hers is normal range if not better, she is STILL producing crystals. Stay away from calcium is what he said and I should research which vegetables do not have calcium. He himself was surprised to hear that other vet and internet said carrots are potentially bad for those with bladder stones, green pepper etc. Surprised once again. He said that this, hair loss, etc can be signs of cushings and although they did a cbc not much determined that she did or didnt have cushings yet his associate ruled it out.. makes no sense.. He said her cholesterol was a little elevated, thyroid was FINE.. which they always thought might be a reason why she has been starving since Birth, and a few other things a little off.

He kept saying as I had read, that cushings is hard to diagnose and that Reese has some indications of it but not all. As many here had said the next step, contrary to what his associate said three weeks ago.. who was dropping cushings and told me to retake urinealysis.. now he is advising us to give her the two hour ACTH.. sorry I forgot which way it goes, test. If she reacts "strangely" and doesnt have a normal reaction after two hours, she has cushings.. no need to go to University of Tennessee to diagnose cushings but to determine atypical cases.. as he put iit. .Please do not take me verbatim here, because I had so much information and am not typing alll exactly as he put it.

He told me to leave her on Natural Balance (Dick van Patterns food) reduced calorie dry, only because I just took her off of ziwipeak and doesn't want a million changes now.. he discussed other foods like SO from one brand if she does have crystals or cushings but to leave her alone now.

I did not bring up the use of the antibiotic simplicf ( I believe that was the name.. I had the right name written down but forgot to ask) about a possible antibiotic to help hair growth...His direction is to give her the ACTH test and then go from there at the same time as doing a dental that she is long overdue for. She had the blood panel three weeks ago so I didn't need to redo blood for the dental.

He sort of yelled at me and told me to stop trying to become the next endocronoligist (internet based) and leave it to the professionals who have a hard enough time getting clear cut answers to many canine issues and obviously human, as well. He felt that it is nice for me to go online researching or at YT but to again not search for the answers but to do the necessary tests one by one to rule things out.

I still did not hear from my friend who has his own vet practice but might go to him as well to fill him in and see what he suggests. I do feel that I should get the necessary ACTH to rule out the cushings and then move on like finally told today.

I unfortunately walked out without her blood and urine test copies but do want to get them and keep them on file.. I will be asking when they call with her dental estimate (which the front desk receptionist told me $360 to $600) without the pre blood work.. since I had it I was going to save $70.00. They quoted me $215 for her ACTH test. So as unfortunate as it is that my husband is out of work, as I am.. we will obviously do all we can for Reese to ensure her health. I havent decided if I will just schedule in the next couple of days or go to my friend first. I have to be honest as much as all will say we are all entitled to second opinions.. after getting my head bitten off for asking my million questions and being armed with internet data.. I am almost afraid to step on my regular vets toes!!! I know how dumb that sounds (since we should all be our own advocates or act as one for our dogs) I still do not want to cause any unecessary tension with my vet and just put her through the ACTH and move on from there. It is not that I do not trust my vet but I have gotten so many contradictions from their office as welll as what I read online.. Just want to do the right thing and not rush into anything or worse off ignore the signs of a fatal illness. I still keep wondering why I would have been told to do major hip surgery by a renowned vet on a seven month old puppy when she NEVER had any indications of having legg perthes in 9 years!!! Very concerning.

Thanks again to all and thanks for the questions to once again ask him.. any additional advice would be helpful

wow. you are certainly in a mess... i'm sooo sorry you and reese are going through all of this! glad to see that you went to a different vet. seems like you wasted a lot of time and $ with the other one. if reese will eat the natural balance and seems to be doing good on it, i would keep her on it. when zowi had pancreatitis, high cholesterol and triglycerides, after changing her diet to reduced calorie and retested in one month there was a significant improvement so her dr recommended i keep her on the same diet. sounds like you're getting started on the right track here and hopefully will have your answers soon. sending prayers and well wishes to you and reese!

just saw the pictures of reese... she's beautiful! the spots she has do look very similar to spots my zowi has. in the beginning, they were black spots and eventually raised up. zowi's dr said they are lipomas, which are old age spots. we have no current plan to remove them as the risk of surgery is greater than the risk of having the spots according to zowi's dr. with cushing's, their skin becomes very thin and paper like. this may be what you're describing as "wrinkled skin." again, i have no idea if this is what's going on with your girl but i pray you get some answers soon. zowi had several symptoms of cushing's, but no hair loss thankfully. she was 9 years old when symptoms started and is 11 now. many cushing's dogs have only one or two symptoms, it is very unlikely for all the symptoms to be present in one dog, so keep that in mind. not sure if you have it or if others have suggested it but care credit might be a good option? i have added a picture of me holding zowi on a yorkie boat cruise we went on this past september to show you her cushing's pot belly. (this was taken a couple weeks before starting treatment with trilostane.) keeping you and reese in my thoughts and prayers.

Thank you so much for posting your picture. Zowi is adorable and you are a very attractive woman, as well. Zowi and Reese can be sisters based on their bellies....ha, I must admit thought that Reese has always had this type of extended belly. From the time she was a puppy we called her pot belly piglet. Hers seems to have gone down a bit since she lost a lot of weight, due to our dilengence and keeping her on a "jenny craig" for dogs diet. I am only kidding but both of us were/are on a strict diet and we both did very well, finally!

I do have a call into my friend and hopefully he can see her today. My husband is picking up her records of her last blood panel and urine so that he can hopefully figure something out. My husband is getting very angry with me and tells me to stop looking online. Meanwhile my own vet told me to find "calcium low or free" vegetables to give her. I couldnt help then to start my research, again! I am not even sure which crystals she has but based on the low calcium diet advice I suppose she has the calcium oxalate crystals. It was foolish of me not to have asked and when I called they said I needed to speak with the dr and just figured I would have my husband pick the records up and my friend would be able to tell from her records, or call.

I am just surprised that they havent suggested any antibiotics or real diet, and are telling me to search for the appropriate "snacks" vegetables since she has to watch her weight. I am getting very upset with my vet and my husband is upset with me! They did not want to change her food again, which I do understand, so she is on dry natural balance reduced, since I had it in my house prior to putting her on ziwipeak. I add a ton of water and she seems to just swallow them hole, as usual, which cant be too healthy for her either. She has always inhaled her kibble or any food for that matter, but I am sure it is irritating her even more.

I read about using cranberry supplements etc, but my vet doesn't say one word. The next step according to him is the ACTH test. He feels that the crystals are related to cushings.. I am confused since why not try to treat the crystals and then move forward. I am wondering if the hair loss can be a direct relation to the crystals and producing too much of whatever she is.. calcium or protein.. still not clear on that.

I just don't know why he isnt dealing with the crystals first.. even if it is cushings, shouldn't he treat the crystals immediately, or does the cushing med treat the crystals. I know I sound nuts but I just want solid answers.

Based on her symptoms (to me, layperson) she sounds like she has a thyroid problem but yet the thyroid is fine. I just read the repoort and she has calcium oxalates. I probably caused this by giving her all of the wrong vegetables that are high in calcium. I am trying to have her drink more water and we are getting the estimate for my friends acth test, xray or ultrasound of her bladder to check for stones, and dental which she is long overdue for.

Any comments would be appreciated. Her T4 is 1.7 normal and her ph is 6.5, normal. Help????

well thanks very much for the compliments. :) i do hope your friend can see her today and go over all of the results you now have and have some direction as far as the cranberry supplements and what to do next! i wouldn't waste any more time or money with the other vet.

i too am surprised that they haven't started any type of treatment for the crystals. cushing's meds would not directly treat them. the meds for cushing's would keep the cushing's under control so it doesn't create further problems such as utis, hair loss, etc.

there is more to the thyroid than t4 levels. a full thyroid panel would be best at getting the whole picture with t3s and such. looking at zowi's most recent labs her total t4 was 3.7 with a reference range 1.0-4.0 being normal. this is after she was on her thyroid medication for a month. she gets monitored every 3 months to make sure her thyroid med dosage is still correct. so far she has stayed on the same dose, but some dogs require adjustments. if it is a thyroid problem, the medication is given every 12 hours and is inexpensive. the rechecks and monitoring are also fairly inexpensive. much easier and cheaper than treating cushing's or both. it does seem like reese is on the low end of normal and maybe the full panel is warranted here. but these are all just my opinions. best advice i can give you is to find a good vet that you can trust and listens to you! this is the key to you getting the answers you need and reese getting better.

The only suggestion I have is to do a consult with a vet nutrionist. If your vet does not know one in your area, you can find one at:

American College of Veterinary Nutrition

Your vet is right....sometimes these things take time to diagnose. You have to do the tests and follow the clues based upon her symptoms and labs that you do have. Going from one vet to another is not going to yield good results imho. I would pick the one I like and stick with him/her. Clearly your vet has suggested prescription foods....Urinary SO is used for stones (I have two pups on it and they are doing well) ... I suppose he is holding off until he knows for sure what is going on.

I will keep her in my thoughts and prayers.